Carbon Fibre Falco Tanks

[D-Rider]

A little while ago, Nooj started a thread about the possibility of getting some genuine carbon fibre tanks made up.

Well I've been in conversation with the chap that makes them and I can now answer just about all of the questions and uncertainties and might have some good news on the likely cost.

..... read on .....

Firstly the things people wanted:

• 1) Ethanol Resistance:
  Yes, they do come with an ethanol resistant inner coating. This is what Richard says:

  I seal them with a special base resin that is ethanol and chemical resistant. The adhesive I make to bond the base in is made using the same base resin with additives and chemicals to make it a strong ethanol resistant adhesive as you cannot actually buy an adhesive for this purpose...

  2) Additional Fuel Capacity: I did discuss the idea of growing the tank but that's not easy and would add to the not inconsiderable cost of the mould. However as the carbon fibre shell can be much thinner than the plastic tank, maintaining the standard external profile will inherently give a useful capacity increase (and, Graham, your Baglux tank cover will still fit). This is what Richard says:

  Altering the tank to get more capacity is not easy. The mould as it is for a stock tank which is in a condition where a mould can be made directly from it is about £2500.00 if there are no logos to remove and it is not painted with anything other than 2 pack paint. The RS250 tank had been painted and the paint did react in the moulding process so needed some work to tidy up the surface a little too.. BUT having said that. The RS250 show should be 16.5 litres but because it is much thinner than the plastic used in the OEM tank it does hold about 20 litres.

  Now we can't be sure how much of a capacity increase will be achieved with the Falco tank until one is made but if we assume a similar increase to the RS250, them maybe the Falco's 21 litres might climb to about 25 litres ... but, as I say, that can't yet be verified - probably safer to assume a bit less.
  
  3) Price: I'll come back to that in a moment - maybe not as much as you might have thought

A few more points .... the tank from which a mould can be made.
Richard points out that people generally want OEM fit of a tank that he will supply.
If the tank from which the mould is made has already suffered ethanol-related growth, then so will the mould and all the tanks that come from the mould. Therefore we need to find the best "spare" tank that we have in our various stashes of spares. I have one that I'm willing to donate to the cause. At present I'm not sure whether it has grown. I've had it empty and unused in my garage for the past five and a half years ... so it might be fairly good but if there are others out there with a good finish and that haven't grown then please let me know.
Clearly whatever we can find will have great bearing on the fit of the final product.

OK .... back to costs ......
The variables that have an impact on which we can't yet be so accurate are:

• A) The amount of carbon fibre required (or more pertinently, the amount of additional carbon fibre over and above that needed for the RS250 tank that Richard currently produces).
  
  B) The number/cost of fittings that have to be procured and bonded in for the tank mountings, fuel-pump mountings etc.
  
  C) The number of people who will commit in order that the mould costs can be defrayed.

Really we are looking for 7 or 8 people firmly committed to the project .... however it may still be a goer with as few as 5 - albeit at a bit of a higher cost.

Things to bear in mind:

• I) Many of us have said "I'll never sell the Falco"
  II) If we fill standard tanks with fuel, the ethanol in it will make them grow and attack their very fabric .... at some point those of us that will "never sell the Falco" will have to resolve this problem.
  III) Replacement genuine tanks cost between £1,200+VAT and £1,782+VAT (the cheapest being the Oasis Green and the most expensive being Grey (often referred to as Silver))
  IV) The proposed carbon fibre tank will be ethanol resistant and will give us a lot more security against this cursed fluid.
  V) They will have a greater capacity than standard tanks

Of course as with replacement OEM tanks, the carbon ones are just the tank shells - you need to transfer your fuel pump, filler cap, front mount etc. Look on this as a good opportunity to replace the fuel filter and internal fuel lines.

So .... the price .....
Well I'm not yet able to give you a firm price (though I do have a good indication).
What I need to know is who would be in and out at various price points.
So, please respond as accurately as possible to help me understand the viability of this. I'm collecting this information via Surveymonkey - so please click the following link and make your views known:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/99BFMJY


Further questions and comments? Please post them up below and we'll try to resolve them.

.... and to be going on with .... an RS250 tank

[spiderwheels]

Can the tank be left unpainted with no issues (e.g. UV, fuel spills, washing and polishing)?

[Viking]

That RS250 tank is a work of art.

The only "downside" to getting a CF tank for the Falco is that I'd need to find CF fairings, tail section, etc, etc.

Oh, and how about asking on the Falco Owner's group on FarceBook and over in the "other" forum? Them Yanks seem to have more money than brains at times.

(For any fellow Aussies who are curious about the cost, GBP1 ~= AU$2 at the moment.)

[D-Rider]

Can the tank be left unpainted with no issues (e.g. UV, fuel spills, washing and polishing)?

I'll check and let you know.

That RS250 tank is a work of art.

The only "downside" to getting a CF tank for the Falco is that I'd need to find CF fairings, tail section, etc, etc.

Oh, and how about asking on the Falco Owner's group on FarceBook and over in the "other" forum? Them Yanks seem to have more money than brains at times.

(For any fellow Aussies who are curious about the cost, GBP1 ~= AU$2 at the moment.)

I have thought of posting in the other Falco communities but as it was gone midnight when I got this together last night I wasn't about to start out posting elsewhere.
TBH, I'd like to check the interest on RS first of all. After all I know a lot of people on here and can have a little bit more confidence in any commitment shown. If we have enough interest on here, widening the circles will then just strengthen the case - therefore I'll give it a few days or a week and then review whether the project has legs and whether to consult more widely.

[Dalemac]

Andy,

I didn't want to do the survey without this question being answered.

I'm considering a complete respray of my bike (not imminently, but within a year or two) - It would be a shame to buy a black CF one and have it resprayed.

Is there the option of using different coloured carbon fibre cloth - and if so what additional cost might this add? I'd most likely be interested in white or red.

Dale

[D-Rider]

Andy,

I didn't want to do the survey without this question being answered.

I'm considering a complete respray of my bike (not imminently, but within a year or two) - It would be a shame to buy a black CF one and have it resprayed.

Is there the option of using different coloured carbon fibre cloth - and if so what additional cost might this add? I'd most likely be interested in white or red.

Dale

TBH I'd be surprised if Richard has experience of using this .... and having only been developed last summer, I bet it's pretty expensive - though I'll ask .....

[D-Rider]

OK, I've spoken with Richard again today, got answers to your questions and found out some more info.

First the questions:

Can the tank be left unpainted with no issues (e.g. UV, fuel spills, washing and polishing)?

Yep - it's lacquered with a 2-pack clearcoat and is resistant to all the things mentioned. The product is very UV stable.

Andy,

I didn't want to do the survey without this question being answered.

I'm considering a complete respray of my bike (not imminently, but within a year or two) - It would be a shame to buy a black CF one and have it resprayed.

Is there the option of using different coloured carbon fibre cloth - and if so what additional cost might this add? I'd most likely be interested in white or red.

Dale

OK .... he doesn't use different coloured CF cloths - most tend to be CF strands woven in with coloured glass strands.
He can add some coloured "sparkles" (he said purple, green and I think blue)
He also has contacts at a company that can apply pigmented lacquer to some top quality CF. He mentioned Blue, Green, Red and Yellow as possibilities.

The first picture is an untrimmed carbon part as it comes from the mould (before lacquering)


These pictures are the same part after tinting




Richard apologises that these are just quick snaps from his phone.
Now the firm that does the tinting does a top job but it's not cheap. The cost depends on how much material is used but Richard reckons it'll add about £250 to £400 to the cost of a tank.
Of course it's an option that can be added to a tank for those that want it done - and not for those that don't.
Dale - when answering the survey, please base your responses on the standard CF tank and just bear in mind what the optional colour might cost on top of that.


Now some general stuff:
Talking to Richard, it's clear he's a real enthusiast who knows his stuff. He uses top quality pre-preg CF for the tanks.
He seems to have quite a track record having made parts for MotoGP teams.

He was pointing out how thoroughly he seals his tanks against ethanol - even sealing edges of holes etc.

His experience with RS250 tanks is that Aprilia filler caps don't necessarily vent that well and that he likes to fit an additional tank vent as standard.
Realising that this may not work too well for those who use Baglux covers to attach their luggage, we agreed that this could be an option that people can choose whether they take it ... depending on whether they use baglux covers and on their confidence in the venting of their fuel caps.

Well I think that's most of today's progress .... so please respond to the Survey Monkey thing so that we can determine whether this is a goer.
I'm confident that it's a quality product and the likely price is reasonable ... so all we need now is enough of us wanting them.

[Viking]

You are a truly evil man. Now I want a CF tank. I don't need one, but I want one.

[mangocrazy]

You are a truly evil man. Now I want a CF tank. I don't need one, but I want one.

Likewise. My problem is that I want two, not one (i.e. one for the Red Falco and one for the Blue)

[D-Rider]

You are a truly evil man. Now I want a CF tank. I don't need one, but I want one.

Likewise. My problem is that I want two, not one (i.e. one for the Red Falco and one for the Blue)

Ah, but have you factored in the fact that whichever you bike you buy for will become the "carbon black" one.
IF we can get enough together to justify making the mould, it won't be so difficult to get further ones made at any point in the future .... when people's finances can stretch to it.

However, I get the feeling that this is probably not going to happen. From the original thread I had thought there would be a fair bit of interest at the right price.
Having tried to collect responses, only 4 people have given any feedback - and one of them didn't leave their forum name so I'll have to discount that one as I can't be sure it was serious.

Unless we get a fair bit more positive response very soon, this opportunity is going to be gone and we'll continue living in a world of ever degrading fuel tanks ....

[wayno]

I must admit to being one of those many who haven't filled in your questionnaire. I think it's a good price, and surprisingly less than I'd have expected, unfortunately I just can't warrant spending that much on the bike for something that I don't entirely need (at the minute).

I have checked my bank account since you posted the pics up though as they look awesome.

[D-Rider]

I must admit to being one of those many who haven't filled in your questionnaire. I think it's a good price, and surprisingly less than I'd have expected, unfortunately I just can't warrant spending that much on the bike for something that I don't entirely need (at the minute).

I have checked my bank account since you posted the pics up though as they look awesome.

Yep - this is really the reason for asking the questions as if I just asked "who wants one?", well, most people would put their hands up.
To understand whether it's worth committing to moulds, we need to understand who would buy at various price points - so if there is not enough serious interest to actually part with cash, it'll save us making an expensive mistake.
I'm still hoping a few will decide that they have a tax rebate coming in the next few months or some other windfall and decide that they can stretch to this (I expect Pete is already going round his nursing home determining which "inmates" might have viable kidneys that he can harvest .....).
I've just received my jubilee payment for enduring 20 years at the same company - so that'll help in my case.

[Firestarter]

I've answered with a tentative "yes", however I only noticed the large box at the top for forum name after I'd hit submit...

[spiderwheels]

I must admit to being one of those many who haven't filled in your questionnaire. I think it's a good price, and surprisingly less than I'd have expected, unfortunately I just can't warrant spending that much on the bike for something that I don't entirely need (at the minute).

I have checked my bank account since you posted the pics up though as they look awesome.

Yep - this is really the reason for asking the questions as if I just asked "who wants one?", well, most people would put their hands up.
To understand whether it's worth committing to moulds, we need to understand who would buy at various price points - so if there is not enough serious interest to actually part with cash, it'll save us making an expensive mistake.
I'm still hoping a few will decide that they have a tax rebate coming in the next few months or some other windfall and decide that they can stretch to this (I expect Pete is already going round his nursing home determining which "inmates" might have viable kidneys that he can harvest .....).
I've just received my jubilee payment for enduring 20 years at the same company - so that'll help in my case.

Unfortunately no such windfalls for me. But such mods are still cheaper than buying a new bike, provided this one has another 46K left in it...

[D-Rider]

I've answered with a tentative "yes", however I only noticed the large box at the top for forum name after I'd hit submit...

Ah - OK - The unnamed one is you .... results back in
Thanks