Helmets??

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Chabby
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#16 Post by Chabby » Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:51 am

I've used an AGV X Vent for the last 8 yrs or so and have just bought an Arai Viper.
The AGV is heavier but quieter - although I always wear earplugs, the Arai is noticibly noisier due I think to all the vents on it.
On the plus side its a lot lighter and puts less strain on the neck when riding and has excellent visibility.
I tried to get another AGV but they don't seem to make one that suits my head shape/size at the moment.
I don't know whether it's worth the premium - there's undoubtedly a bling element about Arais but I suspect there are other helmets as good which are a lot cheaper.
And if you hit anything immovable at anything over 30mph you're pretty much dead whatever hat you're wearing.

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#17 Post by T.C. » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:43 pm

ligloo wrote:you all know 'm not a major biker now BUT I have been into it and still ride albeit not legally, I have a shoei, have had it for years and don't know if I should change it now (no accidents with it, worn infrequently and most importantly, its PRETTY AND PINK :smt002 ) .... any biking I do now or in the future is in the middle of a field or pillion...

however naive I am, and I haven't looked into this per se.... SURELY flip front lids have to be way 'unsafer' than full helmets? the mere fact that they have a 'give' point as in the join has to make them less 'hitproof'???

I'm not an expert by any means and am purely raising/asking a question so don't slate me! I'm genuinely interested in opinions!

I just cannot figure out how a helmet WITH joins is as safe as those without, am I missing something?

Ps I was gonna quote the person saying they wore them for safety but I can't for some reason :smt012
You are absolutely spot on with your observations and is one of the reason why more serious head, neck and fatal injuries occur to riders wearing a flip front than a conventional helmet.

Even now, many of the flip fronts only just creep in at EC22/05 level, and I know for fact that it was only a couple of years ago one major manufacturer nearly lost its accreditation which is why they are now sold as an open face and the flip front is sold as an after market accessory.

Anyone who says that a flip front is worn for safety reasons, I am afraid is talking out of their rear orrifice, but anyone who says they wear one for practical reasons is much nearer the mark :smt002
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#18 Post by D-Rider » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:58 pm

I guess it's a matter of assessing various risks.

Presumably there's the pre-crash phase where things like visibility (peripheral vision restriction etc) are important safety items

Then the crash phase itself where shell strength, impact absorbtion, resistance to rotation etc are key

And finally the post crash phase where things like access to the victim without compromising neck and spine plus easy access to airways are key.

I realise it's a balance between these things but I'd place more emphasis myself on the things that help you avoid the accident and protect during the accident - avoiding the need for the post crash or at least giving something to save.
That said, a system that would offer all of these would be the best.

I can easily see why Pete places the emphasis on the post crash phase - that's the bit you will experience in his line of work and the understanding of the access benefits to paramedics etc will be keenly felt.
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#19 Post by Syltiz » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:00 pm

I think the person who spoke of flip-tops being safer was referring to ease of access to airways for paramedics in the event of a crash... which is a valid point I guess. I personally would never go flip front or open face.

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#20 Post by Aladinsaneuk » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:52 pm

actually tc, i was very specific about the ease of access for airway - and i think i may have a valid point as it is, after all, my professional skills that can be affected

I am not a paramedic, but know and work with a lot of them - and one of the views that a lot of folk have expressed is do they pull the helmet off to get airway access and risk other injuries.... if some one is in acute respiratory post trauma then there is little choice - but there is a huge risk involved

and that is for a paramedic - what chance for us lesser mortals who see an rta in front of them - do we wait for paramedics to arrive to make a decision for us? I for one appreciate the value of the golden period - and with our ambulance crews expecting a response time of 15 minutes then action may have to be taken before they arrive

I would also point out that the professional racers are now wearing helmets with removable pads that the track marshals are being trained to remove = presumably so they can get airway access- though i reckon it would still be a bitch trying to get a guedal airway in a full face helmet, let alone an LMA

I made my choice on those grounds - and is my choice alone, and not one i would force anyone else to do.

I would also agree that ANY badly fitted helmet will increase risks, and that applies to flip front helmets as well - but a poorly designed or cheap latch system will add to the risks


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#21 Post by Samray » Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:53 pm

Airway access is a side issue.
No need for access if the helmet hasn't performed it's main function. :smt002

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#22 Post by Aladinsaneuk » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:26 pm

erm

sorry sam

very very wrong.....

no matter what kit you are wearing the risk of haema or simple pnuemothorax is high

let alone, god forbid, partial or full flail chest....


Let's face it, you wouldn't go to a nurse to get good advice on a problem with a Falco - you'd choose an Engineer or a mechanic...


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#23 Post by Samray » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:31 pm

Wrong nursey. All your ministrations are wasted on a corpse.

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#24 Post by Aladinsaneuk » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:32 pm

lol

i asked for that :)


Let's face it, you wouldn't go to a nurse to get good advice on a problem with a Falco - you'd choose an Engineer or a mechanic...


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#25 Post by Samray » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:39 pm

Quite prepared to admit it does depend on the scenario.

They are of course in a class of their own for a fag break. :smt003

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#26 Post by MartDude » Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:08 pm

Also eating & drinking. And, as far as convenience is concerned, a godsend if you wear glasses - it's a right bloody faff with a full-face.
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#27 Post by HowardQ » Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:30 pm

All the points made have been good ones, Pete's comments have to be taken into serious consideration, as do all the others. However, if we forget the "after accident" scenario for a minute, I have tended to go for kit with a good reputation in racing and on the road, that feels good (and safe) when I wear it, hence Arai and Shoei helmets for some time. I do wonder how good a £50 helmet can be if it gets 4 stars from Sharp, when an Arai gets 3, but my instinct tells me that an Arai that now costs £370 will behave better than a £50 cheap lid, am I wrong, is it some sort of snob factor, possibly, I don't know.
I do know how the cheap helmets feel whenever I've tried one, crap!
Many (many!!) years ago I can remember blasting down the prom at Skeggy at some silly speed, laid across the tank of a modified Matchless 650 CSR with clip-ons down at the bottom, wearing a pair of sneakers, shorts, a thin white T-shirt and some dark sunglasses, (no helmet law then).
It felt cool as hell, with a load of mates on similar bikes.
Would I do anything like it now, would I Feck! Many of the mates I knocked around with at that time ended up needing skin grafts, some much worse!
Can't even remember the last time I went out in denims, these days I nearly always wear a back protector and good quality kit in general.
Find it really scary when I see some babe perched on the back of a R1 in jeans, trainers and a leather jacket, with about 6 inches of bare skin between the jeans and the jacket.
Followed my daughter like that once, the following week I went out and got her some matching leather pants that zipped to her jacket and some decent boots.
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#28 Post by mangocrazy » Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:20 pm

MartDude wrote:And, as far as convenience is concerned, a godsend if you wear glasses - it's a right bloody faff with a full-face.
I recently bought myself a Shoei XR1000 (I've always got on well with Shoeis - I just seem to have a Shoei-shaped head) and it is absolutely brilliant with glasses. Normally I need to have a special pair of substantially-made glasses that can withstand being jammed inside a full-face helmet.

With the XR1000, the side arms of my glasses just slide in as smooth as silk and sit perfectly on my lugholes. I've no idea what the newer XR1100 is like in that respect, but if you're a spectacle wearer then I'd definitely check out the XR1000, especially as there should be some major price reductions due to dealers shifting stock in advance of the XR1100's arrival.

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#29 Post by T.C. » Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:58 pm

HowardQ wrote:All the points made have been good ones, Pete's comments have to be taken into serious consideration, as do all the others. However, if we forget the "after accident" scenario for a minute, I have tended to go for kit with a good reputation in racing and on the road, that feels good (and safe) when I wear it, hence Arai and Shoei helmets for some time. I do wonder how good a £50 helmet can be if it gets 4 stars from Sharp, when an Arai gets 3, but my instinct tells me that an Arai that now costs £370 will behave better than a £50 cheap lid, am I wrong, is it some sort of snob factor, possibly, I don't know.
Tha post accident scenario comment is a fair one, but what a lot of people quickly forget is that the front of these helmets is prone to caving in on an impact making them dam near impossible to open to gain access to the airway. I have dealt with a number of crashes where the front of the helmet has had to be undone at the pivot screws in order to gain access which takes time, and I have recently had a few where the rider has suffered eye, nose, check and jawbone problems which have been directly attributed to wearing a flip front.

With a conventional full face, it will maintain its integral rigidity and structure, and the paramedics now know how to get a full face off quickly and without adding to the problem. My old force have now banned the use of flip fronts after 2 riders were killed whilst wearing them and their deaths were directly attributed to their helmets.

As far as using the same kit as that used by racers, without wishing to sound patronising, this is something of a red herring. The top riders get paid vast amounts to use certain products, and their kit is bespoke and has no similarity with that you can buy at your local store, but the two disciplines of racing and road riding are a million miles apart.

The Sharp test is a complete joke and was established after the inroduction of EC22/05.

Many people are of the belief that wearing the expensive helmet will afford greater protection than the cheap brand, but this is total rubbish, and to use your phrase, nothing more than snob value.

All helmets have to comply and exceed the same standard in order to be legally sold here in the UK, but it does not matter how much you pay, nothing will prevent a broken neck.

Although this may be repeating something I wrote and posted a couple of years ago (for those who can remember the old site) it probably will not do any harm to reproduce the article here :smt017

Hands up all those who don’t like or disagree with the compulsory wearing of crash helmets? Unfortunately, 80% of motorcyclists killed on the road suffer major head injuries. Head and brain injuries can be caused by low speed accidents, and although modern motorcycle helmets will offer good protection against such injuries, as in all things, there is no guarantee.

In the UK, the only piece of equipment that must be worn at all times when on a motorcycle is a crash helmet, and until July 2000 they had to comply with BS6658-85. After this date new legislation was introduced where under the rules of self certification a new standard of EC22/05 was introduced so any helmet (which is the majority of them now) carrying this mark together with the CE mark would be perfectly legal to wear in the UK regardless of where they were purchased.

All crash helmets are constructed basically in the same way depending on the materials used.

A shell can be constructed from in the main, Polycarbonate (plastic), Fibreglass, Kevlar, Carbon Fibre or a combination of these materials mixed together to produce what is often referred to as a dual- laminate or tri-laminate construction, however, the helmet manufacturers being the clever people that they are, come up with new and inventive materials all the time. The shell is then lined with a polystyrene type liner for shock absorbency which in turn is covered by a foam liner to aid wearer comfort. The securing strap is normally of a nylon type construction attached to the shell by rivets and can be secured to the head by either a double D ring or safety belt type fastener (which I will talk more about later).

Research has shown that the effectiveness of motorcycle helmets has reduced the risk of fatal head injuries by around 50%. It has been suggested that the extra weight of a helmet actually increases the risk of neck injury, but the research has found no evidence to support this. Full face helmets are generally regarded to offer greater protection against facial and chin injuries than open faced helmets, but this may slightly increase the risk of injury to other parts of the head. In the case of a hinged style of helmet which many manufacturers now offer, there is evidence that the protection offered against chin impacts is inadequate, but more worryingly, riders who suffer chin injuries frequently suffer fractures to the base of the skull – the most threatening head injury.

Still with me? Then read on!

Many experienced riders (and often, dealers are also to blame) will say that only the most expensive helmets will afford the rider the highest levels of protection, and on this basis they will suggest that to get the maximum protection it will cost them several hundreds of pounds, well I am sorry to disappoint, but the key to maximum protection is the fit of the helmet regardless of price. Whether a rider spends £500 on a crash helmet of £50, it matters not as they all have to offer the same levels of protection. What is important is getting a helmet that fits correctly and fits the shape of the riders head, and as the saying goes, a £50 helmet that fits correctly will be far more protective than a £500 helmet that fits badly and it is unfortunate that many riders are using their machines with very poorly fitting helmets and in many cases helmets that are also in very poor condition.

Every manufacturer has their own idea of what is a standard head shape. It is therefore important that a variety of crash helmets are tried before a purchase is made simply because if the helmet does not fit correctly it can:

Cause rotation upon impact which can lead to a broken neck.

Come off in the event of an impact.

Cause excessive wind noise.

Lift at speed causing the rider to lose sight of the road ahead as he/she attempts to look through the chin bar rather than the visor aperture.

A crash helmet when new should be a tight fit even to the point where with a full face style helmet, you are just about biting the inside of your cheek, and there should not be excessive pressure on the forehead. A helmet will mould to the contours of your head and will “Give” by about half a size over the first few weeks, therefore what started off as a tightly fitting helmet will soon become a comfortable snug fit, whereas if it is a comfortable fit at the start, it will soon become loose, noisy increase the chance of it becoming detached from your head in a collision and therefore offer far less protection.

As a general rule, and wherever possible a few basic rules should be applied when looking to purchase a new helmet:

• Decide the maximum budget that you can afford.
• Generally speaking, you get what you pay for, but the level of protection remains constant regardless of price.
• A dearer helmet although offering no better protection, will afford better levels of comfort, afford less wind noise (providing it fits correctly), have better fittings and have a better overall build quality.
• Try on a variety of sizes and makes until you find the helmet that best fits your size and shape of head.
• If you find a helmet off the shelf that fits, ask if you can try the same size that is still in its box. It is more than likely that the helmet on the shelf has been tried on by many people and the interior may have become misshapen. A fresh helmet straight out of its box will provide you with a more accurate fitment guide.

Once you have found the helmet that best suits your requirements, without securing the straps, try and lift the helmet off your head by asserting pressure to the chin bar and to the rear of the shell. Also twist the helmet from side to side. If the helmet fits correctly it should remain on your head and only be capable of being removed with a degree of force. If the helmet can be tilted easily, then it may be because you have the wrong style or make of helmet, it may be the wrong size or even the wrong shape in which case you will need to try another make or size.

Once you have found the correct size and shape of helmet and with it securely fastened, make sure that you can easily turn your head from side to side. Many riders find that their head movements are restricted for all sorts of reasons, not least of which is because the style of helmet they are considering or have purchased is wrong for the type of bike they ride or any one of a combination of reasons mentioned previously.

I mentioned earlier about the securing straps, and this is an area that can and does cause problems. Shoei were one of the first if not the first to introduce the seat belt type fastener, and this found favour with many riders as they found that their helmet could be secured with a gloved hand. Over time, many other manufacturers followed suit, but what often is not realized is that over time these straps will stretch and so they cease to be properly secured to the head. If you do have this type of safety catch, then make sure that you check the tightness of the strap on a regular basis, the last thing you want to do is put a loose strap to the test. With a double D fastener of course, the strap is tightened every time the helmet is put on, and personally I prefer this peace of mind even though it may not be as convenient as the safety belt type fastener.

Once you have made your purchase, there are a few general rules that will ensure that you maintain the maximum levels of protection and comfort from your new hat:

Firstly, never loan your helmet to anyone. We are all different in terms of shape and size, and having spent time bedding a new helmet in and getting it to mould to your shape, someone else wearing your helmet could spoil that as they can push it out of shape.

Secondly, never leave it on the saddle or handlebars of your bike. If it falls off, there is no telling what damage you may have caused, and even though it may appear to be perfectly OK from the outside, you may have compromised the shock absorbency of the liner, and the only way this can be checked is either to send it to a specialist helmet technician or send it back to the factory as they are the only people who will be able to return it back to its original accredited CE state in the event that it is OK.

If you do drop it, or you are involved in an accident, I would also advise that it be changed regardless of whether any damage is apparent. Unknown to you, the polystyrene liner may have been bruised or damaged on impact and the shock absorbency of the liner may have been compromised, is it worth taking the risk?

A good well maintained helmet should dependant on use, last about 5 years, however this rule is dependant on a number of factors. If you are a high mileage user, or you perspire a lot, then you may need to consider changing it more regularly, say every 2 – 3 years as the degradation of the liner will be accelerated. It is worth checking to see whether your riding kit (particularly your helmet) can be covered under your house contents insurance. If it becomes damaged, you can arrange a new helmet quickly and without any financial outlay and thereby ensure that maximum protection is maintained.
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#30 Post by joecrx » Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:52 pm

interesting reading TC , i have a caberge trip , for a change i thought it was a good buy, bit noisy my first flip . im in a lower position than my last bike , , iv paid 300 for a full face helmet ,my aria not as comfy i might add for my head , but a good brand name but noisy mmybe the vents , , i did have a kiwi , less wind noise good fit and light , but i was riding more upright then , its hard to get a helmet that not anly you feel comfertibel in but also suits your head and riding style ,
as we all know you cant test a helmet apart from comfert / fit in the shop , but we dont know how it works in the open road on our bikes , not to mention how it performs in a crash ,
i now we say if it fits ,and its comfy and your happy with it will be ok , but this is not the case ,
personally i dont go fo looks but how it feesl on my head, knowing the bike i drive and the angle im looking out the visor ,

im going to stop here because thers to many variations on what helmets best ,
do you go for , comfort , weight , looks , brand, style, wind nois, and is a £100 helmet better than a £300 helmet .

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