Here's one for TC(or anyone else)

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jonnie_r
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Here's one for TC(or anyone else)

#1 Post by jonnie_r » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:18 pm

Whilst travelling home yesterday round the wonder that is the M25, I came across two marked traffic cars of Surrey's finest, who at varying times took to the hard shoulder, flicked on their red lights and proceeded to jump the queuing traffic. Upon rejoining the main carriageway they then switched of the lights.

Surely they, as enforces of the law and castigaters of such practice from us mortals, should not be engaging in this practice? I have always assumed the blue and red lights are only for use in emergency situations where they need to get through, not just because they have a bacon sandwich/doughnuts/coffee ready at the station.

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#2 Post by T.C. » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:18 pm

There can be many different reasons as to why they needed to use the shoulder and jump the queue and they can all be legit.

Flashing rear fogs can be used for many different reasons, but usualy to ffer read facing protection and advanced warning, blues can be used for many reasons, not just for helping make progress in an emergency.

What you and I don't know is what information was being passed to them by their control room, whether they had intel of something of interest ahead that "may" require their attention and therefore the need for them to be within striking distance, or whether some other incident was about to kick off and they neded to start making their way, for example a pursuit with a local Panda and they were the nearest qualified pursuit vehicle, and then got cancelled because the driver gave up or whatever.

It is easy to make assumptions, but having spent many years working and Policing the M4, M40, M25 sometimes the hard shoulder has to be used for what may not appear to the uninitiated to be emergency related, but is essential for doing the job.

And finally, worth bearing in mind that the rules for Police on the Motorway are different to a degree to everyone else.
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#3 Post by wayno » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:29 pm

I'm with you Jonnie, must have been donut time :)

I have no time for the police anymore since my car was written off by somebody who drove off (while I was upstairs in bed), and after the police refused to do anything I did my detective bit and found out it was a 94/95 green fiesta, went to the police and they flatly refused to even bother checking the stolen car register to see if one had been reported stolen that night.

What I'd like to know is how many remote tickets do they award for people driving up the M40 in the 3rd lane when the 1st and 2nd lane are clear for over half a mile, they're quite often sat on the bridge checking speeds but I bet they issue hardly any tickets for wrong lane use. This has become my new pet hate as I've been forced to drive the M40 every day for the last 2 months :(
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#4 Post by T.C. » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:04 pm

wayno wrote:I'm with you Jonnie, must have been donut time :)

I have no time for the police anymore since my car was written off by somebody who drove off (while I was upstairs in bed), and after the police refused to do anything I did my detective bit and found out it was a 94/95 green fiesta, went to the police and they flatly refused to even bother checking the stolen car register to see if one had been reported stolen that night.

What I'd like to know is how many remote tickets do they award for people driving up the M40 in the 3rd lane when the 1st and 2nd lane are clear for over half a mile, they're quite often sat on the bridge checking speeds but I bet they issue hardly any tickets for wrong lane use. This has become my new pet hate as I've been forced to drive the M40 every day for the last 2 months :(
In respect of your damaged car, did you make an official complaint? if not, why not? If you feel that theywere not doing their job properly, you are entitled to make a formal complaint and it is looked at and investigated by the professional standards department. Coppers are accountable, whilst some are lazy and have an attitude, that does not mean that you should be fobbed off.

If you made the complaint and still got fobbed off, then fair enough, but you will/should have been given an explanation as to why no further action was being taken.

And in respect of your last paragraph, the speed check was probably done by civillians, and the Motorways are looked after by the Highways Authority Traffic officers who have no authority in regards of enforcement.

The M4 in my area does not have any full time policing now, whereas there used to be 15 full time crews, so instead of making assumptions on a public forum, why do you not write to the local force HQ and ask the question, although no doubt you will get a reply similar to the one I have just given you.
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#5 Post by jonnie_r » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:12 pm

That's fair enough and I understand your explanations, and reasoning, however to me and many others using the motorway it just appeared as if they couldn't be arsed with queuing. I didn't have to obviously as I was on the demon of speed that is the Falco :smt003

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#6 Post by jonnie_r » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:48 pm

wayno wrote:What I'd like to know is how many remote tickets do they award for people driving up the M40 in the 3rd lane when the 1st and 2nd lane are clear for over half a mile, they're quite often sat on the bridge checking speeds but I bet they issue hardly any tickets for wrong lane use. This has become my new pet hate as I've been forced to drive the M40 every day for the last 2 months :(
I've been doing the m3/m25 for a 200 mile round trip everyday for three months, wanna swap lol

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Plod...

#7 Post by GregD-UK » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:33 pm

Hi all,

Plod do what the hell they like! They are above the law, all think they are "Judge Dredd!" I too have seeen on many occasions, where they wack on their blues, just to get past a queue of traffic, then, casually turn them off and carry on their merry way.

They fail to reflect that, as civil servants, they are not judges who set prescedents and preside over criminal cases which can be used in future legal decisions. They ensure that the laws are adhered to by citizens of this fair land. Alas, most hide behind their warrant card, and assume wrongly that the law doesn't apply to them....
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#8 Post by wayno » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:08 am

T.C. wrote:but you will/should have been given an explanation as to why no further action was being taken.
The police must care a lot more in your neck of the woods. The reason I was given for them not check was, and I quote, I'm sorry sir, but do you know how many green fiesta's there are in the country. My response was yes, and how many are likely to have been stolen from inverness and driven to high Wycombe, I would assume if it is a joyrider, then it will be a local theft. To be fair at that point I should have leapt over the desk and done the police force a favour by removing some dead wood.
T.C. wrote:And in respect of your last paragraph, the speed check was probably done by civillians, and the Motorways are looked after by the Highways Authority Traffic officers who have no authority in regards of enforcement.
The speed checks are done by one of the police vans with the camera inside, they're quite often sat on the bridge around Beaconsfield. They're obviously quite switched on, it's a damn good area for speeding, if you get in the first or second lane you can get up to about 180mph before you'll see another car in front of you :) If they gave out tickets for driving without due care to everyone who is blatantly in the wrong lane they could all be driving round in pimped up Ferraris and hire a couple of extra people to help try and solve some crime for the victims instead of just fobbing us off.

I know you used to be a copper TC, and I appreciate that a lot of them try their best but have their hands tied by the system, I have been done for speeding in the past and the copper who sent me to court (101 on the motorway up near Birmingham) was a top bloke (even told me that if I kept it below 85 in the future I would be pretty safe), it just grinds my balls that the police force today seem to have no interest in helping the normal folk.
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#9 Post by T.C. » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:50 am

wayno wrote:
T.C. wrote:
The speed checks are done by one of the police vans with the camera inside, they're quite often sat on the bridge around Beaconsfield.
If you made the comlaint to the Scottish Police, can't help you although pretty sure the same complaint procedures apply. If you complained to Thames Valley, I will be happy to provide name, address and telephone number of who to write to, and Thames Valley I kow do take official complaints very seriously.

Beaconsfield and the M40 is part of my old manor, and the camera vans are operated by Thames Valley civillians. Whilst in an ideal world it would be great if they could report for careless or dangerous driving (which would include lane hogging and has always been one of my pet hates and for which I used to bok people for when I served) at the end of the day, because it is subjective and they are not qualified to make that judgement, it simply is not practical, they are only qualified to check and report speed offences.

Bear in mind that Thames Valley Roads Policing has also merged with Hampshire Police roads policing, and so the shrunk department is now covering a bigger area. When I served, there were about 250 of us, with 42 of us full time motorcyclists. Now there is around 120 in Thames Valley and 6 part time motorcyclists.

At the risk of repeating myself, I have said many times that roads policing is not the profession it was a few years ago. Many forces do not consider roads policing as front line policing and budget cuts have been implemented harder in roads policing units probably more than any other division. I am not defending them because these days I look at standards and cringe at times, but, there is some mitigation for this, simply, because of budget cuts, they do not get the training or develop the expertise that I was fortunate enough to gain and benefit from.

I look at case files that come through to me these days, and I am horrified at the way many crashes are dealt with (or are not dealt with to be more precise)
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#10 Post by wayno » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:15 am

It was thames valley police, in Wycombe. This was a couple of years ago now so I'm not going to complain, just bear a grudge.

I don't see why the government spend thousands and thousands of pounds making it an endorseable offence to drive in the middle lane of the motorway, then to not bother enforcing the rules. I know it's not the individual bobby's fault as he does what he's told to do.

They also make it endorsable to undertake on a motorway, but I'm sorry, if people are driving in the correct lane in the first place this would be impossible 95% of the time as there should be no free lane to undertake in (and those 5% are probably in need of more than a fine). I down the M40 the other week in the first lane and it was completely empty for over a mile, the second lane was empty for half a mile and lane 3 and 4 were chocka doing exactly 70 (I was doing a little bit above this cruising past them all, and I actually mean a little bit as my diesel astra is crap :) )

Sort out lane discipline and undertaking/ tailgating will sort itself out.

Ok, man against the system rant over :)

I entered your prize draw by the way TC, got a very nice email back thanking me (any chance of rigging it so I win :smt004 )
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#11 Post by Dalemac » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:47 am

wayno wrote: I down the M40 the other week in the first lane and it was completely empty for over a mile, the second lane was empty for half a mile and lane 3 and 4 were chocka doing exactly 70 (I was doing a little bit above this cruising past them all, and I actually mean a little bit as my diesel astra is crap :) )
I hate this. Its always some business man in his audi/merc (usually on the phone) who thinks he owns the road.

I can't believe how man people think you can only pass a vehicle on the right regardless of speed. Many times I have come across a slow car sitting in the outside lane of a 2 lane dual carriageway with a queue of cars waiting at 40mph when the left hand lane is empty. They obviously have no idea they can pass
on the left legally.

I'm also of the belief that any undertake should be over and done with as soon as possible, to minimize the amount of time being is someones blind spot and therefore less likely to be knocked off.

I think our roads would be much safer for everyone if we all had to do one theory test every 5 years, and a practical every five years to prove we are still able to drive carefully and appropriately.

I would bet that after passing a test, 99% of people never pick up the highway code again in their life.

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#12 Post by wayno » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:07 am

You can't legally undertake on the left, the police now have powers to stop you and ticket you for careless driving. But lets be honest, when have you ever seen anyone being ticketed for driving in the wrong lane, which is the root cause of the fault and would eradicate undertaking and a lot of tailgating (most of which is through frustration).

I've now taken to just undertaking and blasting my horn as I do so, nobody pulls back to the correct lane but it makes me feel better.
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#13 Post by D-Rider » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:17 am

wayno wrote:You can't legally undertake on the left, the police now have powers to stop you and ticket you for careless driving. But lets be honest, when have you ever seen anyone being ticketed for driving in the wrong lane, which is the root cause of the fault and would eradicate undertaking and a lot of tailgating (most of which is through frustration).

I've now taken to just undertaking and blasting my horn as I do so, nobody pulls back to the correct lane but it makes me feel better.
TC recently posted that this IS legal and as a result I've been taking advantage of this.

I guess that if you did it carelessly they could ticket you ..... and I suspect the whole area of what is regarded as careless is open to debate .....
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#14 Post by T.C. » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:01 am

wayno wrote:You can't legally undertake on the left, the police now have powers to stop you and ticket you for careless driving. But lets be honest, when have you ever seen anyone being ticketed for driving in the wrong lane, which is the root cause of the fault and would eradicate undertaking and a lot of tailgating (most of which is through frustration).

I've now taken to just undertaking and blasting my horn as I do so, nobody pulls back to the correct lane but it makes me feel better.
Please advise me of the act and section that states that it is illegal to undertake.

There is no such offence, and never has been, and as mentioned, I have covered this in some detail previously as to the only way you are likely to end up before a court as a direct result of undertaking.

Even the civil courts are accepting that no offence is committed when undertaking.

So if I have missed a recent change in legislation, then please tell me.
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#15 Post by lazarus » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:12 pm

T.C. wrote:There can be many different reasons as to why they needed to use the shoulder and jump the queue and they can all be legit.

Flashing rear fogs can be used for many different reasons, but usualy to ffer read facing protection and advanced warning, blues can be used for many reasons, not just for helping make progress in an emergency.

What you and I don't know is what information was being passed to them by their control room, whether they had intel of something of interest ahead that "may" require their attention and therefore the need for them to be within striking distance, or whether some other incident was about to kick off and they neded to start making their way, for example a pursuit with a local Panda and they were the nearest qualified pursuit vehicle, and then got cancelled because the driver gave up or whatever.

It is easy to make assumptions, but having spent many years working and Policing the M4, M40, M25 sometimes the hard shoulder has to be used for what may not appear to the uninitiated to be emergency related, but is essential for doing the job.

And finally, worth bearing in mind that the rules for Police on the Motorway are different to a degree to everyone else.
I have no doubt at all about what you say TC. But equally, people being people and me being cynical, its just as likely that it was a private need to get back to the station quickly or to the local Tesco etc. Or are you saying that our traffic officers are paragons of virtue who always obey the rules and never take advantage of their position of power?

Go on - tell us all what really happens rather than the party line. My best sailing pal is ex job and some of the tales he tells of what really goes on are hilarious. Funnily enough they incline me to give the police greater support because they show plod as being human ( if at times very laddish and a bit immature!)

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