Attempted start after new battery

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jonnie_r · #1 Post by **jonnie_r** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:59 pm

Right, I've stuck a new battery, YTX14H-BS, in today after not using the Falco since just before xmas due to needing new pads, aforementioned battery and of course the weather has been crap.

Had a quick fiddle and the bike turns over but only seems to fire on one cylinder, running for a couple of seconds before stopping. Clutch is noisy too when I release the lever.

After a few turns there was an almighty pop as well, but being dark I haven't yet investigated, though I am thinking possibly just unburnt fuel igniting?

Anyway I'll be back out in the morning trying again once I can see what I'm doing. Is it going to be bettering whipping the plugs out and turning over a few times to get the oil back in circulation before trying to start it?

Any other tips from you wise Falco owners?

D-Rider · #2 Post by **D-Rider** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:51 pm

I've had a few episodes where it decides it wants to become a single ..... can be quite "entertaining" when accelerating on greasy roads when it changes its mind and becomes a twin again.

Usually a combination of service items resolves it. Clean and gapped plugs and clean air filter (in fact in my experience, dirty oily air filters are particularly notable for this). I believe this makes it over-rich on start up and one of the cylinders floods .... and it just doesn't want to clear.

Of course, could be something else but these things are a good starting point.

jonnie_r · #3 Post by **jonnie_r** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:47 pm

This is just annoying cos it's not long been serviced, I like to keep them done regularly cos I use it for work.

I'll have to start pulling stuff out to check if it doesn't start.

I did take the cover with the tip switch on it out to change the battery, but it is back in the right way, and the display is showing clear. Doesn't it display 'no start' if the switch is activated?

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll go through a few things, but typically my week is now looking busy with work so playing time is limited.

D-Rider · #4 Post by **D-Rider** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:43 pm

The folk lore around the "No Start" message is a thing of myth and legend.

Many will swear blind that if you see it, it means your tip over switch is indicating a tip over.

What it means is that you have tried to start your bike but after a while it has not fired.

This can be down to the tip over switch but it can also be caused by other means (don't ask me what at the moment as I can't remember the specifics)

If it's been serviced recently, then it shouldn't be the things I mentioned. I guess it depends who serviced it and what they did .... some places might not have changed the plugs or replaced/cleaned the filter - but if you did it yourself, you will know and if it was Griff you can be pretty confident it was done as it should be.

So the chances of what I said are lower but might still be possible depending on what has been done.

If the oil was over filled, excess could have been blasted into the airbox, clogged the filter and/or dripped down the TBs into the cylinder .... it has happened.

What is your cold starting technique?
No throttle, full fast-idle, thumb the button - otherwise you risk flooding it. Usually the whole thing floods but not impossible for one to chime in and the other to fail.

If it's not fixed by the time I next pop down to see my mum, I'll try to find a moment to have a look at it with you.

fatboy · #5 Post by **fatboy** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:10 pm

Are you getting fuel to both cylinders ?
Not entirely unknown for a relay to go down, at the worst possible time

jonnie_r · #6 Post by **jonnie_r** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:21 pm

Had a quick attempt at starting tonight, but still just turning over. At least it spins quickly with my new battery :D

To start I just have full fast idle and hold the start button. It's never really let me down before, until the battery was failing in December, and I managed to rack up over 15,000 very happy miles in under a year.

I trust the place I use, never had an issue with them and they are always helpful.

The oil level hasn't been touched since it's last use just before christmas.

On the fuelling side I'm not sure fatboy, this won't really be sorted till the weekend now, when I have some free time.

fatboy · #7 Post by **fatboy** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:28 pm

Very simple test to see if both your injector relays are working, swap em over, they live side by side under the LHS of the tail unit, no's 2 and 3 in a row of 4.
Suss out which cylinder is firing by burning your fingers on the pipe of the firing pot, swap the relays, then burn the fingers of your other hand on the other pipe if the relays are at fault.
Believe the kill switch on the RHS bar has given others single cylinder running.
I know the electrical side of the fuel supply in painful fine detail

jonnie_r · #8 Post by **jonnie_r** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:32 pm

Well, I've had a look today, and double checked I'd put the power commander earth lead back on.

I also used to PC3 software just to verify the TPS was working.

Have taken plugs out and they all seemed wet, one even had a jelly like substane around the electrode??? I turned it over a few times after taking out the plugs and fluid came out of both cylinders, but didn't really smell of petrol. Could it just be that condensation had decided to make it's home in the engine and it just needs a chance to dry out?

Plugs are now drying, so will try again later possibly, maybe without the plugs in but just picking up an earth so I can see the spark at each plug. That'll be easier in the dark anyway.

fatboy · #9 Post by **fatboy** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:33 pm

May well be water in the fuel,check the water run off is not blocked, with filler cap open the run off is on the LHS, the overflow is the centre drain, when you look at the exit for both drains at the tank base, the water run off is the innermost one.
Been there, done that last weekend !
Get a spark plug test lamp, fits twixt plug and cap,will tell you if plugs are sparking when under load (fitted), from £3.50 ish on Amazon

jonnie_r · #10 Post by **jonnie_r** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:03 pm

Yeah, there was water collecting around the cap, so that is on my list to sort. Thanks for the pointer as to which one.

Put plugs in the ends of the leads, lay them on top of the engine to get a ground point and I definitely saw it arcing in the dark of my garden, so it's got sparks.

I guess it's just a combination of everything. It's the longest I've left the bike sat, and I'm itching to get back on it. Andy would seem to be right with his plug theory. If it doesn't work tomorrow I'll get new plugs and put them in, though these ones were new at the last service.

Plugs have dried nicely at gas mark 5, so will attempt a start again tomorrow.

jonnie_r · #11 Post by **jonnie_r** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:01 pm

Ok, it's finally started.

Put plugs back in but still wouldn't fire, so took off fuel line on throttle body.

Ignition on and a liquid that look suspiciously like water came out. A match test confirmed it's lack of flammability. Not sure if the misses liked me using a pyrex bowl to do my testing though

Several twists of the key later, and about a litre of fluid, I'm back to petrol. Bike started, but I did manage to drop one of the sealing washers for the fuel line somewhere, so won't be moving till that's replaced.

Thanks to Andy and fatboy for providing the right answers

#12 Post by **mangocrazy** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:27 pm

jonnie_r wrote:Ignition on and a liquid that look suspiciously like water came out. A match test confirmed it's lack of flammability. Not sure if the misses liked me using a pyrex bowl to do my testing though

Several twists of the key later, and about a litre of fluid, I'm back to petrol.

Could this be the dreaded ethanol doing its sneaky phase separation thing? How long had the bike been left standing, and was it outside? If leaving the bike for any length of time these days I think it's advisable to fire a bit of fuel stabiliser into the tank to stop just this kind of thing from happening.

fatboy · #13 Post by **fatboy** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:55 pm

Glad you got it running

What's phase separation ? ?

D-Rider · #14 Post by **D-Rider** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:10 pm

mangocrazy wrote:
jonnie_r wrote:Ignition on and a liquid that look suspiciously like water came out. A match test confirmed it's lack of flammability. Not sure if the misses liked me using a pyrex bowl to do my testing though

Several twists of the key later, and about a litre of fluid, I'm back to petrol.
Could this be the dreaded ethanol doing its sneaky phase separation thing? How long had the bike been left standing, and was it outside? If leaving the bike for any length of time these days I think it's advisable to fire a bit of fuel stabiliser into the tank to stop just this kind of thing from happening.

That could be a worryingly good call but equally likely (maybe more so) is the drain round the filler being blocked.

Firestarter · #15 Post by **Firestarter** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:14 pm

fatboy wrote:Glad you got it running

What's phase separation ? ?

It's where two (or more) different liquids which are mixed together separate out into distinct "phases", i.e. oil and water.