dear TC can this be right?

Message

lazarus · #16 Post by **lazarus** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:40 pm

BikerGran wrote:
lazarus wrote:
BikerGran wrote:Because of this, our blurb for club runs includes instructions to ride at your own speed and not to just do what the leader does!
Only sensible but in my experience very difficult to do. By the time the rest of them are disappearing into the distance you start to speed up to keep up.
We use the 'leapfrog' marshalling system, so no-one gets lost as junctions are marked and a back marker checks that no-onme gets left behind.

Not a matter of getting lost BG. More a case of the riders in front trying to prove they are faster etc. Doing the alpha male bit.

For my sins I am an IAM member but I refused to go on any more of their rides after the first two. Both were full of police bikers and both were done at a speed that I was very unhappy with. And yet when I did my IAM test, the police instructor who took it complimented me on riding briskly but safely so it's not just a case of me being a slow coach.

The core problem is that a lot of men are just competitive. I am in cars and on my sailing boat, but not on bikes.

BikerGran · #17 Post by **BikerGran** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:53 pm

Ah well you see the majority of our members have been there, done that, and have nothing to prove!

snapdragon · #18 Post by **snapdragon** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:28 pm

Gio wrote:
snapdragon wrote:so the best bet if anyone goes down is to ride off, come back the other way and pretend you've just arrived
I don't think so, after all we are all in control (or should be) of our own actions. I'd never presume because someone I am following overtakes that its safe for me to do the same.

Yes we should all be in control of our own ride, but the law is going to prosecute a rider who just happens to be ahead of and in no way involved with, an incident.

It won't matter if you're riding a 'system' or any other sensible manner of riding, if a rider is taken out by another vehicle it appears that the lead rider and possibly all the other riders in a group will be assumed guilty of causing the damage

TC · #19 Post by TC » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:18 pm

What has to be born in mind is that if something goes pear shaped on a run as part of a group, someone cannot be reported for an offence just because they were riding as part of a that group.

To prove either dangerous or careless driving it would have to be shown beyond all reasonable doubt that the actions of that rider on its own fell well below that expected of a reasonably safe and competent rider and therefore made a substantial contribution to the crash or incident occurring.

As has already been mentioned, every rider is responsible for their own actions, and so collectively it would be very difficult to obtain a conviction, especially against the lead rider, and this has been shown to be the case is some recent incidents where they have tried to prosecute the riders in a group, and the prosecution failed badly (in fact it failed before it even got to court) because the criteria in respect of evidence required to secure a conviction was dodgy at best.

lazarus · #20 Post by **lazarus** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:13 pm

I guess the argument TC might be that they were racing each other.

TC · #21 Post by TC » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:40 pm

lazarus wrote:I guess the argument TC might be that they were racing each other.

But there is still a requirement to prove that they were racing.

The specific offence of racing on the highway is very difficult to prove unless for example there is good video evidence (one of the few times where video evidence is a bonus) or the quality of the witnesses is such that they cannot be discredited. That is why in most cases, even though it is accepted that the offenders probably were racing, the prosecution goes for careless driving as the alternative offence which is easier to prove.

But I would suggest that in most group ride outs this is not the case (although I accept there are always exceptions to the rule)

HowardQ · #22 Post by **HowardQ** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:58 pm

Sorry TC but haven't the police brought their first test case, the one with 5 or 6 riders in North Yorkshire where one biker was killed, and they were all charged with dangerous driving or worse.
I know they were charged, as it was covered in MCN and several Red tops, but can't remember if it has been to court yet.

TC · #23 Post by TC » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:45 am

HowardQ wrote:Sorry TC but haven't the police brought their first test case, the one with 5 or 6 riders in North Yorkshire where one biker was killed, and they were all charged with dangerous driving or worse.
I know they were charged, as it was covered in MCN and several Red tops, but can't remember if it has been to court yet.

As far as I am aware and according to my sources the case was dropped like a hot potato by the CPS for the very reasons I mentioned.

lazarus · #24 Post by **lazarus** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:56 pm

TC wrote:
lazarus wrote:I guess the argument TC might be that they were racing each other.
But there is still a requirement to prove that they were racing.

The specific offence of racing on the highway is very difficult to prove unless for example there is good video evidence (one of the few times where video evidence is a bonus) or the quality of the witnesses is such that they cannot be discredited. That is why in most cases, even though it is accepted that the offenders probably were racing, the prosecution goes for careless driving as the alternative offence which is easier to prove.

But I would suggest that in most group ride outs this is not the case (although I accept there are always exceptions to the rule)

Thats what I was meaning TC. They were suspected of racing so the one that survived was considered for dangerous driving. Pure speculation of course.

#25 Post by **mangocrazy** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:17 pm

lazarus wrote:Thats what I was meaning TC. They were suspected of racing so the one that survived was considered for dangerous driving. Pure speculation of course.

One rider was killed, the rest were unharmed. not the other way about. And if you as a biker are making assumptions that the riders were racing, then what chance do we have with the police. Why do people always jump to conclusions and assume the worst?

fatboy · #26 Post by **fatboy** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:03 pm

I have to say in all honesty, in over 30 years of riding I have never felt the need to race another bike on the road.
Spirited riding, yes,racing no need at all.If someone is faster than me, they're ,faster, that does not alter the size of my genitals mentally or physically
Many many many points proved with boy racers but never at any cost,after all its more fun being able to do it again another day
Best of luck to the rider concerned, and sorry that he lost a mate