How many rings on the fork pre-load do you ride with

Message

old git · #1 Post by **old git** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:15 pm

I like how the bike handles in the corners, like on rails very very stable, it never twitches.
But......when riding under normal conditions it feels a little stiff, on our usually pot-holed roads some of the surfaces are a little harsh on the front end.
Never changed it since i bought it 3 years ago, only showing 2 rings on the pre-loads adjusters.

How many rings do you ride with showing

blinkey501 · #2 Post by **blinkey501** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:34 pm

Three here

D-Rider · #3 Post by **D-Rider** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:04 pm

Right .... let's try to clarify what we're discussing here.

How many rings on the fork pre-load do you ride with

1) what rings are we talking about here? To set pre-load, the Showas have a screw thread that screws in and out of the top of the fork - so you see a spiral rather than rings. The Marzocchis have no thread showing as all pre-load adjustment is within the fork leg.

But......when riding under normal conditions it feels a little stiff,

2) Pre load adjustment won't alter how stiff it feels - that's done by the rate of the fork springs and also the damping rate that you have set (compression and rebound will both have effects). Pre load adjustment is used to set your sag.

3) The only rings I can think of are those on the outside of the fork tubes that are used to set the front ride height. These have no impact on the stiffness of the suspension but alter the geometry of the bike. You can use these to affect the stability of the bike (ie how quickly it drops into corners)

So .... not really sure what the question is ..... sorry

old git · #4 Post by **old git** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:33 pm

D-Rider said;
Right .... let's try to clarify what we're discussing here.

Quote:
How many rings on the fork pre-load do you ride with

1) what rings are we talking about here? To set pre-load, the Showas have a screw thread that screws in and out of the top of the fork - so you see a spiral rather than rings. The Marzocchis have no thread showing as all pre-load adjustment is within the fork leg.

As noted we are toalking about the rings on the pre-load adjuster
Pre-load has a screw thread which can be wound in/out with the original 22mm ring spanner in the pack under the tail section.
On my forks there is not a spiral on the outside it is rings. Was 2 showing.Quote:

But......when riding under normal conditions it feels a little stiff,

2) Pre load adjustment won't alter how stiff it feels - that's done by the rate of the fork springs and also the damping rate that you have set (compression and rebound will both have effects). Pre load adjustment is used to set your sag.

3) The only rings I can think of are those on the outside of the fork tubes that are used to set the front ride height. These have no impact on the stiffness of the suspension but alter the geometry of the bike. You can use these to affect the stability of the bike (ie how quickly it drops into corners)

See above, there are rings on the outside of the pre-load adjusters not a spiral. They are like the those on the outside of the fork tubes.

The manual refers to them on page 69
States
'clockwise -spring preload increase-The vehicle is more rigid'
'anticlockwise - spring preload decrease-The vehicle is less rigid'

So .... not really sure what the question is ..... sorry

Question is quite simple
How many rings
1
2
3
4
5
No comment

blinkey501 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:34 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Three here

Aladinsaneuk · #5 Post by **Aladinsaneuk** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:45 pm

3

And I understood exactly what you meant Keith

Forgive Andy - he suffers from PGT - Pre Geriatric Tension

But, simple terms, the rings showing will affect the steering, the other settings will affect the fork performance....

Ie set them up for you

D-Rider · #6 Post by **D-Rider** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:38 pm

Sorry Pete - you're talking about the ride height settings- this isn't what he's talking about.

Old Git has just confirmed he does mean the pre-load adjuster - though pre-load will not make things stiffer or less stiff - they pre-load the springs and from them you can set the sag.

#7 Post by **mangocrazy** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:21 pm

I have my fork springs set on minimum (i.e. no) preload). I guess that will be 5 rings, then. And my springs are Hyperpro progressive, not OE. But I do have to take issue with what Andy says about adding preload not changing the spring rate. OK, so the spring rate is set from the factory - it is what it is. But by adding preload you are increasing the effective spring rate.

Spring rate is specified in various units - kg/mm, lbs/inch, Newton metres, etc. But what they all mean is that for every unit of measurement the spring is compressed, the effective rate will rise. A spring with a nominal rate of 500 lbs/inch will have an effective rate of 500lbs when it is compressed by one inch. When it is compressed by two inches it will have an effective rate of 1000lbs, and so forth.

So by pre-loading the spring you are moving the spring into a higher rated part of its working range, and it will feel stiffer as a result. You are also raising the ride height and reducing the sag, of course.

The problem I found is that as standard the forks are over-sprung; i.e. the OE fork springs are too hard/stiff/strong/heavy for most people. The OE springs are rated at 1.05 kg/mm - most OE fork springs are in the 0.85 - 0.95 kg/mm range, depending on bike weight and type. Basically Falco fork springs are too stiff by about 10 - 20%, and adding preload to that will only make matters worse.

IMHO, of course...

cornish mafia · #8 Post by **cornish mafia** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:51 pm

Almost same as Mango.....Hyperpro Progressive springs but four rings showing.........now wanting to try five though !!!

D-Rider · #9 Post by **D-Rider** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:28 am

mangocrazy wrote:I have my fork springs set on minimum (i.e. no) preload). I guess that will be 5 rings, then. And my springs are Hyperpro progressive, not OE. But I do have to take issue with what Andy says about adding preload not changing the spring rate. OK, so the spring rate is set from the factory - it is what it is. But by adding preload you are increasing the effective spring rate.

Spring rate is specified in various units - kg/mm, lbs/inch, Newton metres, etc. But what they all mean is that for every unit of measurement the spring is compressed, the effective rate will rise. A spring with a nominal rate of 500 lbs/inch will have an effective rate of 500lbs when it is compressed by one inch. When it is compressed by two inches it will have an effective rate of 1000lbs, and so forth.

So by pre-loading the spring you are moving the spring into a higher rated part of its working range, and it will feel stiffer as a result. You are also raising the ride height and reducing the sag, of course.

The problem I found is that as standard the forks are over-sprung; i.e. the OE fork springs are too hard/stiff/strong/heavy for most people. The OE springs are rated at 1.05 kg/mm - most OE fork springs are in the 0.85 - 0.95 kg/mm range, depending on bike weight and type. Basically Falco fork springs are too stiff by about 10 - 20%, and adding preload to that will only make matters worse.

IMHO, of course...

The only springs where the spring rate changes with compression are progressive springs that are wound with a non-uniform spiral.

With single rate springs, the spring rate doesn't change whatever preload you select. All this does is add a load offset before they move.
with a spring rate of 500lbs/in, if you load it with 500lbs, it'll move one inch. If you then add another 500lbs it'll then move another inch and so on.
So:
Load.............Displacement
500lbs..............1in
1000lbs............2in
1500lbs............3in
2000lbs............4in

If you set a pre-load of 1000lbs it'll still have the same spring rate but it won't move until you load it with 1000lbs
Load.............Displacement
500lbs..............0in
1000lbs............0in
1500lbs............1in
2000lbs............2in

so once it starts moving. adding 500lbs of load will still only move it an inch - the rate hasn't changed and it doesn't feel stiffer.

Lets assume the bike weighs 1500lbs (for the sake of argument all of this weight acting solely on the one spring) . With no pre-load it would compress the forks by 3in.
Assume you weigh 500lbs - so when you sit on the bike it'll compress the forks by 1 further inch to 4 inches.
However with 1000lbs pre-load selected, the 1500lb bike will only compress the forks by 1in. When the 500lb rider sits on the bike it will still only compress by 1 further inch to 2 inches.
In other words it will feel no more stiff and no less stiff. All that will have happened is that you will have set the bike up so that it is in a better part of the available range of travel.

This is what you are doing when you set the sag.

Adjusting the pre-load on single rate springs does not make them feel more or less stiff.
Progressive springs are a completely different kettle of trout.

flatlander · #10 Post by **flatlander** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:25 am

So. In more simple terms it mainly would affect the travel and reduce the range of movement of the spring by using up the 1st 2inches that it was going to move anyway?

Meaning that it uses a smaller range of movement, not more stiff but less bouncy

D-Rider · #11 Post by **D-Rider** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:36 am

Don't confuse reduction in spring length with available travel of the fork sliders.
Adding pre-load is so you don't use up most of the suspension travel with just the weight of the bike. You end up with more usable travel.

Aladinsaneuk · #12 Post by **Aladinsaneuk** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:00 am

ah I stand corrected

i posted after your reply, before his second reply - and the delay was my fault as i chose to live in the swamps with no wifi coverage...

#13 Post by **mangocrazy** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:12 pm

As I said in my first post, the spring rate does not change - but the effective spring rate does. In Andy's example, the force needed to move the spring is increasing as load (whether it be bike, rider, passenger or preload) is being applied.

In Andy's example, with the weight of the bike and rider and with 1000lbs of preload applied, the spring will have an effective rate of 3000lbs/in. For the suspension to move when on the road, a force of greater than 3000lbs will need to be applied. The more preload is applied, the stiffer the suspension will feel, even though the spring's basic rate hasn't changed.

If you want to test this out for yourself, just add an inch of preload to the rear shock and tell me whether the ride comfort is the same as previously. I can guarantee it won't be; you'll be kicked out of the saddle all over the place...

D-Rider · #14 Post by **D-Rider** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:32 pm

mangocrazy wrote: In Andy's example, with the weight of the bike and rider and with 1000lbs of preload applied, the spring will have an effective rate of 3000lbs/in. For the suspension to move when on the road, a force of greater than 3000lbs will need to be applied. The more preload is applied, the stiffer the suspension will feel, even though the spring's basic rate hasn't changed.

No this isn't true. Once the suspension is in its operating range (which it will be if you've set the sag properly for the weight of the bike and rider) it will still move according to the spring rate. For the 500lb/in spring rate we have discussed, when you add another 500lb and it'll move an inch, add 1000lb and it will move 2inches and so on. It wont feel more stiff and it won't have a spring rate that feels like 3000lb/in.

mangocrazy wrote: If you want to test this out for yourself, just add an inch of preload to the rear shock and tell me whether the ride comfort is the same as previously. I can guarantee it won't be; you'll be kicked out of the saddle all over the place...

Indeed if you wind on too much pre-load for the weight of bike and rider, it will either top-out on rebound - giving you a kick up the arse or you'll lock the suspension up so that it's basically solid and it'll kick you up the backside when you hit a bump.

From an independent suspension guide:

sportsrider.com wrote:An actual number for front sag is less important, especially considering that more bikes come from the factory with extra front sag that helps keep the front tire on the ground under acceleration. Knowing that changing preload does not alter spring stiffness, what happens when you turn the adjuster? The starting position of your suspension's travel to a higher or lower point changes. For now, the only reason you will want to change front preload is if your suspension is bottoming-which you can check by wrapping a zip-tie around a fork tube-or if you have too little sag and the fork is topping out-which you will feel as the front end skipping over bumps and losing traction as you exit a turn.

http://www.sportrider.com/suspension_se ... ewall.html

They also have an excellent explanation of pre-load and spring-rate - worth reading:http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9510_tech/

#15 Post by **mangocrazy** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:56 pm

D-Rider wrote:Indeed if you wind on too much pre-load for the weight of bike and rider, it will either top-out on rebound - giving you a kick up the arse or you'll lock the suspension up so that it's basically solid and it'll kick you up the backside when you hit a bump.

Now we're getting down to it... If the spring rate is unchanged by adding excessive preload, why does it kick you up the arse when (for example) you forget to adjust the preload to solo spec after carrying a chunky passenger?

The spring rate doesn't change, but winding on excess preload makes the suspension feel stiffer, due to an increase in effective spring rate.

The bottom line is that if you apply too much spring preload (and too much in that situation is an entirely subjective amount) then the suspension will feel too stiff/harsh/firm/whatever. Preload does affect the way the suspension feels subjectively. It's another adjustment to be used wisely to get the feel of the suspension tuned into the way you want it to be. By all means use sag measurements to get into the right ballpark, but then tune it to your personal preferences.

Getting back to Old Git's original question, I would suggest that he gets someone like John at Revs to fit softer springs and revalve the forks, as the OE forks are both over-sprung and over-damped in the compression phase in my opinion. Twiddling the preload and compression damping adjustments on the forks won't achieve anything because the springs and compression damping are too stiff for most people. The adjustment you want is out of range with the standard fork springs/valving, and only a change of spring rate and a re-valve will bring it back in range.

Basically I found the OE Falco forks to be very similar to my old Ducati 888, the forks on which were memorably described by Derek Chittenden as 'feeling like a road drill'. The Falco has 1.05 kg/mm fork springs, the 888 had 1.1 kg/mm fork springs (and was a lighter bike).

When I had my forks re-sprung and re-valved (I also had Race-Tech Gold Valves fitted) it felt like a different bike. The front end is now as good as anything I've ever ridden and I have complete confidence in it. That wasn't the case with the standard fork springs/settings.