Happy 10th b'day.

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Samray · #1 Post by **Samray** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:01 pm

1 January 2002 marked the introduction of euro notes and coins in the European Union.

Enough is enough ... time the joke ended.

Willopotomas · #2 Post by **Willopotomas** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:31 pm

If it lasts until the end of the year I'll be very surprised indeed.

#3 Post by **mangocrazy** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:53 pm

I'm watching all this panic in the Eurozone with interest. I've long wondered how the Euro could be so overvalued, given the problems it has. Looks like it's on the decline now, although whether the powers that be will allow it to implode remain to be seen.

D-Rider · #4 Post by **D-Rider** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:28 pm

It's a great shame. A common trading medium should be a huge benefit to us all and cut one of the big rake-offs of the financial sector.

The trouble is the speculation that is done on currencies destabilises it - along with governments borrowing more than they can repay .... and who deals in this speculation, lends unwisely to governments, rakes off money from it all and then expects to be bailed out by you and me?
Yep - the financial sector.

#5 Post by **mangocrazy** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:25 pm

Yes, as a concept it's brilliant. And it's also wonderful news for the consumer (generally speaking). But it doesn't take into account the huge imbalances between the different economies in the Eurozone.

I mean, inextricably linking Germany and Greece in monetary union and expecting them to converge economically was always going to end in tears.

I suspect the only way the Euro can be kept alive is by Germany leaving it; and I can't see there ever being the political will to do that.

One of the problems is that Germany is the net benefactor from the Euro; the Germans have an artificially 'cheap' currency with which to export, and so they can sell their cars and bikes and machinery at (comparatively) knock down prices to the rest of the world. If Germany were still tied to the DeutschMark, the price of a BMW would be about 30-50% more than it is now, and they just wouldn't sell.

So Germany needs the Euro (to maintain her exports) as much as the Euro needs Germany (to bankroll the whole show). I really have no idea how it's going to end up...

D-Rider · #6 Post by **D-Rider** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:32 pm

Yes the economic convergence is an unfortunate consequence of the way money markets are played.

With this being the case the only solution would be better common control of the European economy - which would be a very good thing but deeply unpopular with the governments of the nation states and the xenophobic media.

Willopotomas · #7 Post by **Willopotomas** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:04 pm

The only way to make it work would be to make it truly democratic. Which it isn't and never will be. Grease and Italy now have people in charge who have been placed in power, unelected, by unelected people in the Euro Council. The Eurozone is corrupt, virtually bankrupt and on it's last legs.

There have been a lot of bad decisions made by a lot of bad politicians.. Those who're out to fulfil their own goals and ambitions rather than that of the people they represent.

I've read the pro's and con's... Some of the cons have already been picked up on. It's corrupt to the core and will continue to do so until something gives and there's another war. The UK pay's £50million a DAY to the EU.. Just imagine how much better our country would be if we pumped that amount of cash, everyday, back in to our own economy.

D-Rider · #8 Post by **D-Rider** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:47 pm

Our net contribution to the EU is actually about a third of what you suggest - still a lot of money but just as we recognise that for the greater good of the citizens of UK we all contribute to a pot of money and it is spent according to need across the UK, the same is true for us as EU citizens.

I'm sure it is not done perfectly as politicians are involved but the principle is a good one.

Willopotomas · #9 Post by **Willopotomas** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:00 pm

D-Rider wrote:I'm sure it is not done perfectly as politicians are involved but the principle is a good one.

It could work well.. on paper.. but when things are worked out over a table, there is one huge element missing. Greed. Those in power crave more of it and do anything to keep hold of it. Such as is what's going on at the moment. The ESM is a fooking scary idea, and if it's passed later on this year, then we may as well just leave the bank vaults open.

MartDude · #10 Post by **MartDude** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:02 pm

And let's not lose sight of the founding principle of the EU - to prevent war in Europe, through tying the nations of Europe more closely together through trade. It's worked - no major war in Western Europe for over 65 years - compare that with the decades before 1939 - Austro-Prussian & Franco-Prussian wars, WW1 & WW2.

Willopotomas · #11 Post by **Willopotomas** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:12 pm

Free trade yes. Rule NO!

fastasfcuk · #12 Post by **fastasfcuk** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:14 pm

Willopotomas wrote:The only way to make it work would be to make it truly democratic. Which it isn't and never will be. Grease and Italy now have people in charge who have been placed in power, unelected, by unelected people in the Euro Council. The Eurozone is corrupt, virtually bankrupt and on it's last legs.

There have been a lot of bad decisions made by a lot of bad politicians.. Those who're out to fulfil their own goals and ambitions rather than that of the people they represent.

I've read the pro's and con's... Some of the cons have already been picked up on. It's corrupt to the core and will continue to do so until something gives and there's another war. The UK pay's £50million a DAY to the EU.. Just imagine how much better our country would be if we pumped that amount of cash, everyday, back in to our own economy.

well said. 50 mill a day or 20 mill would be better in our pockets than the likes of the kinnocks on £175,000 a year. the sooner this massive mess implodes the better. it was never going to work.

MartDude · #13 Post by **MartDude** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:14 pm

Willopotomas wrote:The UK pay's £50million a DAY to the EU.. Just imagine how much better our country would be if we pumped that amount of cash, everyday, back in to our own economy.

This would be a big help as well

http://www.avaaz.org/en/goldman_sachs_pay_your_tax/

Willopotomas · #14 Post by **Willopotomas** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:21 pm

An interesting little website

http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.u ... costs.html

D-Rider · #15 Post by **D-Rider** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:41 pm

Willopotomas wrote:Free trade yes. Rule NO!

It's hardly "Rule" - just like any level of government all constituents elect representatives and those representatives share in decision making - so we have German, French, British, Greek, Spanish etc people influencing things that happen here just as those same German, French, British, Greek, Spanish etc people influencing those same things happening in each of those countries.
.... just like we have representatives from Cardiff, Glasgow, Penzance, London and everywhere else affecting decisions throughout UK - not only in the area they represent.

some things should be decided locally and some things on a wider basis.