Lithium iron batteries

[wayofthedarkhand]

As the Falco charging circuit is poor, and the big v-twin requires high CCA to start, have any of you run lithium ion batteries at all?

I reckon a 6 or 8 cell LIon battery would be great on these bikes.

I've been planning to make my own (for the ZX9R) for ages, but never got around to it.

They weight less, charge faster, discharge slower (when not in use), have a longer life expectancy, and can produce up to 300CCA.

The main disadvantage i can think of is the lower ah. Oh and if you use the wrong type of battery you might end up with a flash fire -

[D-Rider]

As the Falco charging circuit is poor

However we have had a discussion about Lithium Ion and Lithium Iron batteries (which look as though they are probably more suitable). Here's the link:
https://www.ridersite.com/viewtopic.ph ... ht=lithium

[wayofthedarkhand]

Thanks for the link.

You disagree about the charging circuit? From what i've read on the US forums, before doing the wire mod no one is getting 14v or more at idle, and they're getting even less at 4k

A healthy charging circuit needs to be over 14v preferably 14.5v


Edit

That thread is a bit out of date. Lithium Ion ( i don't know about Iron) batteries are easy to come now, and sold across the web in the uk. A better bet though is to make your own.

The DeWalt power tools battery packs are the best source of cells and be bought cheaply on ebay. It'd probably cost about £50 at most to produce your own.

[Nooj]

And I'd avoid Lithium Ion batteries altogether for a bike or car, for the fire hazard if they overheat.

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries look like a much better bet. I was looking at these a while ago and asked a few people's advice.

On Griff's advice: The LiFePO4 batteries are OK on IL4 600's, but don't have the capacity to repeatedly fire up a big twin.

The charge on these batteries gets depleted very quickly, so after a couple of non-starts you'll probably end up with a flat battery.

The 'brown connector issue' isn't something that affects Falcos over here apparently, if you want to uprate your battery, use a higher capacity YTX14 rather than the stock YTX12.

Ben Wah does run a LiFePO4 on his hill climber Falco, but that's hardly a stock day-to-day bike. And it cost him a fair whack to the wallet as well!

I'd give it another three years or so before LiFePO4 technology can give Lead Acids a run for their money from a price perspective. As it is, although they're big and heavy, lead acid batteries are still the best value and the hardest wearing.

[D-Rider]

If you have unacceptably high voltage drop through the brown connector, it can usually be sorted by making sure the contacts are electrically clean (as for all contacts in the circuit).
In my view the wire mod should only be done on bikes that really need it. The danger of doing it to bikes that are charging well is that you can overcharge the battery.

[Aladinsaneuk]

I have no need to do the wiring mod
(touches wood!)

But I do use an optimate when I can

[wayofthedarkhand]

I've got a battery charger, but no optimate and my bikes are kept away from the house. I'm sure how I'd mount a solar panel without someone stealing it.

A flexible panel that could be placed behind the screen would be great, but all the ones I've seen are rigid cases.

[flatlander]

As an aside you have to run at more than 4 k to recharge

[D-Rider]

As an aside you have to run at more than 4 k to recharge

[wayofthedarkhand]

Not on the bandit 1250 I have here or the zx9

The battery should even be charging at idle. A multimeter will be able to tell us that.

The falco generator can put out 400w so there is plenty of excess capacity.

I've read that the reg/rec is weak link in the system. An upgrade should be simple enough though.

[D-Rider]

Yes indeed - if you had to be above 4k mine would hardly spend any time charging.
I note in the manual that 4k is the rpm that they tell you to check it at - but that's just to compare output at a defined engine speed - not where it starts working.

BTW some chaps (from Romania) on AF1 are working on a series regulator that may be better.
I'm keeping tabs on that and will keep this forum updated if progress is good.

[BenWah]

I've run a LiFePO4 12 cell for a year in my hillclimber. I wouldn't run one on a road bike though. The Falco has an incredibly tough gear ratio on the starter (the compression isn't that high so it's not that) motor, you only have to catch the engine up against compression when you press the button and it'll not start. You can rock it backwards on the starter and try again but the sprag isn't going to like it for long...

I tried an 8-cell and it would barely turn the bike over. I thought perhaps the hillclimber was particularly tough, but I tried it on my road Falco and that was just the same. A 12-cell is the minimum for the Falco and you can forget it on a frosty morning - I revert back to the Lead Acid battery for really cold morning starts.

For my racer the 3kg weight saving is worth the hassle, but not for my road bike.

BW

[wayofthedarkhand]

I'm not sure i follow that. As the Li battery is superior in every way other than capacity. Higher voltage and much higher CCA

http://www.super-b.com/products/super-B-7800.html

[anzacinexile]

I'm not sure i follow that. As the Li battery is superior in every way other than capacity. Higher voltage and much higher CCA

http://www.super-b.com/products/super-B-7800.html

They're not quite the plug 'n' play they would have you believe I'm afraid.

1) For everyday usage in cold and wet conditions, lead acid is FAR more robust
2) CCA is important but so is capacity hence Griff's (and others) comments that they haven't the reserves to cope with multiple starts in quick succession.
3) They are sensitive to charging. You cant just treat them like lead acid unless you really want to shorten their life (and in the worse case scenario burst into flames). Ideally, they should be charged with a cell balance charger.

As for the Flaco having crap charging systems, IMO thats bollocks. Like anything else, if you dont do regular maintenance you will suffer. I've seen that wire mod and again, IMO, thats just overcoming some basic lack of TLC. Keep the connectors clean and the charging system is more than adequate for our bikes. I get 14.2v at tickover and 13.9 at 4k - more then adequate for simple lead acid and AGM types

[wayofthedarkhand]

You can get lithium batteries with higher capacity (i.e more cells) but then you start to lose the main advantage (weight). Plus they'd need a higher voltage to charge

I agree with you about the charging of the Li batteries. Though no LiFePO4 batteries should burst into flames, though other Li ones are likely to.

As for the Flaco having crap charging systems, IMO thats bollocks. Like anything else, if you dont do regular maintenance you will suffer. I've seen that wire mod and again, IMO, thats just overcoming some basic lack of TLC. Keep the connectors clean and the charging system is more than adequate for our bikes. I get 14.2v at tickover and 13.9 at 4k - more then adequate for simple lead acid and AGM types

My Falco charging circuit is poor, or maybe i've just been spoiled by Japanese bikes.

At the multimeter both the ZX9R and Fuel injected Bandit I recently had read 14.5 at tick over.

My Falco (with is terminals in much better condition I have to say) reads 13.5-13.7 at 4K this drops to barely above 13v