Oil change gone wrong

[matapaca]

Hi All
I've not been on here for a good while what with work , family work kids and more of the same and what has been a very reliable Falco but I came to change the oil over the weekend and messed it up. The result I think is a big end or something else has broken inside. I've not had a proper chance to investigate but I need the bike for commuting and need a quick fix so am thinking of getting a replacement engine.

On a quick search found that the rsv engine up to 2003 is a straight swap but a friend of mine is asking about the need to change the ECU or other electrics, changing the link on the gears.

My plan will be to rebuild the broken engine in time but just need to get back on the road for the moment.

Thought this might do the trick. http://r.ebay.com/eLTxb0 or has anyone got a falco engine for sale?

Also any referrals for good mechanics in the High Wycombe area. I think I can do this myself and want to have a go at it but just in case I get into trouble some back up would be useful.

Cheers
Matt

[mangocrazy]

First thing is to make sure that the problem really is as bad as you think it is. What did you do precisely that you think caused this problem, and what are the symptoms? Don't rush into the grief of an engine change without being sure of the facts and your diagnosis.

[wayno]

Hi mate,

Pete at PGB is a very good Yamaha mechanic, he used to work at Brian Grays when they were down the back of the station (little greek bloke if you ever went in there). His mobile number is (hopefully it's still the same) 07846334525, he's got a unit up cressex industrial estate, other side of the main road to screwfix.

If you need a hand give me a shout, I live in Wycombe too, down by the rye. Whereabouts are you?

[D-Rider]

First thing is to make sure that the problem really is as bad as you think it is. What did you do precisely that you think caused this problem, and what are the symptoms? Don't rush into the grief of an engine change without being sure of the facts and your diagnosis.

What he said !

[wayno]

I'm just checking if a mate of mine still has the engine from a RSV he broke tail end of last year, you never know.

[D-Rider]

On a quick search found that the rsv engine up to 2003 is a straight swap but a friend of mine is asking about the need to change the ECU or other electrics, changing the link on the gears.

If it does transpire that you need to swap the motor, yes the Mille up to 2003 and Tuono to 2005 are suitable donors.
The electrics/ecus are basically the same and as you've pointed out, the gearbox is a bit different - If you fit the Falco linkage, you get a racing shift ... though I think you can fit the gearbox end of the linkage upside down to correct it.

As engine swaps go, fitting a mille/tuono lump in a Falco frame is no worse than fitting a falco lump

[matapaca]

First thing is to make sure that the problem really is as bad as you think it is. What did you do precisely that you think caused this problem, and what are the symptoms? Don't rush into the grief of an engine change without being sure of the facts and your diagnosis.

Firstly in my defense I was rushed and doing other stuff with the family. I got the bike up on the stands and drained the oil, , I know it should have been hot but had to take my opportunity to get the job going. took out the filter drain plug, and then filter and left it for about 6 hours. put in new filter, put bolts back in and put about 3,2 litres back in and level in tube I think was on max. in the evening I put the carbon cans that I repacked back on, started it breifly as loud and kids asleep and all OK. Monday morning off to work, cans very loud but thinking back I could hear a knocking sound and also a scissors type sound if that makes sense but in a panic to get to work set off, lost power after a mile and saw oil level way to high so dropped some oil till back down to max, stupidly went on, cut out again and level up high again. so parked up and beat myself up for being a dick. checked airbox and no oil in there, she wont turn over on button. any other check i can make? thanks

[matapaca]

Hi mate,

Pete at PGB is a very good Yamaha mechanic, he used to work at Brian Grays when they were down the back of the station (little greek bloke if you ever went in there). His mobile number is (hopefully it's still the same) 07846334525, he's got a unit up cressex industrial estate, other side of the main road to screwfix.

If you need a hand give me a shout, I live in Wycombe too, down by the rye. Whereabouts are you?

Hi Wayno, I am up and over the hill at Hazlemere, thanks for the tel number and offer of a hand, I would like to have a go at sorting this and may take you up on the offer, beers or tea are on me.
cheers

[matapaca]

On a quick search found that the rsv engine up to 2003 is a straight swap but a friend of mine is asking about the need to change the ECU or other electrics, changing the link on the gears.

If it does transpire that you need to swap the motor, yes the Mille up to 2003 and Tuono to 2005 are suitable donors.
The electrics/ecus are basically the same and as you've pointed out, the gearbox is a bit different - If you fit the Falco linkage, you get a racing shift ... though I think you can fit the gearbox end of the linkage upside down to correct it.

As engine swaps go, fitting a mille/tuono lump in a Falco frame is no worse than fitting a falco lump

Thanks for confirming as it opens up the options certainly for cost. One more thing I guess the RSVR up to 2003 will fit as well but any electronics stuff to sort?
thanks
Matt

[D-Rider]

On a quick search found that the rsv engine up to 2003 is a straight swap but a friend of mine is asking about the need to change the ECU or other electrics, changing the link on the gears.

If it does transpire that you need to swap the motor, yes the Mille up to 2003 and Tuono to 2005 are suitable donors.
The electrics/ecus are basically the same and as you've pointed out, the gearbox is a bit different - If you fit the Falco linkage, you get a racing shift ... though I think you can fit the gearbox end of the linkage upside down to correct it.

As engine swaps go, fitting a mille/tuono lump in a Falco frame is no worse than fitting a falco lump

BTW when you drained the oil, did you drain from both the oil tank and the drain point by the oil filter?

Thanks for confirming as it opens up the options certainly for cost. One more thing I guess the RSVR up to 2003 will fit as well but any electronics stuff to sort?
thanks
Matt

Yep Mille-R of that era is fine too - main upgrades were wheels and suspension.

Electrics are fine Same clocks (other than different colour illumination) Same ECU (might have had a different map - but not so different - just to cater for different exhaust .... which isn't an issue for you) and slightly different cams/valves).
Not really anything to worry about.

[mangocrazy]

First thing is to make sure that the problem really is as bad as you think it is. What did you do precisely that you think caused this problem, and what are the symptoms? Don't rush into the grief of an engine change without being sure of the facts and your diagnosis.

Firstly in my defense I was rushed and doing other stuff with the family. I got the bike up on the stands and drained the oil, , I know it should have been hot but had to take my opportunity to get the job going. took out the filter drain plug, and then filter and left it for about 6 hours. put in new filter, put bolts back in and put about 3,2 litres back in and level in tube I think was on max. in the evening I put the carbon cans that I repacked back on, started it breifly as loud and kids asleep and all OK. Monday morning off to work, cans very loud but thinking back I could hear a knocking sound and also a scissors type sound if that makes sense but in a panic to get to work set off, lost power after a mile and saw oil level way to high so dropped some oil till back down to max, stupidly went on, cut out again and level up high again. so parked up and beat myself up for being a dick. checked airbox and no oil in there, she wont turn over on button. any other check i can make? thanks

Hmmmm - this all sounds a bit strange to me. So basically you suspect the engine has locked up (seized)? And 3.2 litres certainly doesn't sound like an excessive amount of oil to put in on a refill. The manual says to put in about 3.5 litres and then warm the engine up and be guided by the level in the tube. If it were me I'd give Griff at Aprilia Performance a ring, confess all and see what he says. The cutting out and refusal to turn over could have other causes, although I agree that circumstantial evidence would point to what you last did (i.e. oil change).

What was the temperature gauge showing when all this happened? If you had seized the engine there should have been major heat issues at the same time; conditions that result in seizures develop a large amount of heat. They also normally make a very nasty noise and lock the rear wheel - at least they did when I rode two-strokes.

Don't abandon hope yet...

[Dalemac]

So, you put in 3.2 litres. Did you measure how much came out? if so, what was it?

I would have thought too much oil would burst a seal before the big end went. Are there any oil leaks?

Have you actually checked to see if it is siezed? See Mango's reply below for the best way to check if it is siezed.

Not sure how too much oil would cause the engine to seize, unless it somehow buggered up the oil pump (possibly whipped into a foam by the crankshaft? (not on a dry sump like the v990 though)), effectively starving the engine of oil. Pulling the valve cover off one of the cylinders would be a good indication of oil starvation - the cams will be scorched.

Edited due to crap advice...

[mangocrazy]

If you take the plugs out (2 on each cylinder, remember), put the bike in 1st gear and you can't push it, it may well be seized. Pulling the clutch in will just prove whether the clutch works or not and will not prove whether the engine is seized or not.

[fatboy]

Could this be oil pump failure, the motor suffering from hydraulic lock up because the pump did'nt scavenge ?

[Dalemac]

If you take the plugs out (2 on each cylinder, remember), put the bike in 1st gear and you can't push it, it may well be seized. Pulling the clutch in will just prove whether the clutch works or not and will not prove whether the engine is seized or not.

Yeah i don't know why i said to pull the clutch in....possibly something to do with the 12 hours i have been working so far today...