Here we go again!

[HowardQ]

So we are debating about whether we are to be involved in strikes on Syria.
WTF
What rights does this country have to do anything like this?
No one country has the right to do this even if the "atrocities" are totally proven, which is not the case.
I still find it difficult to see why Assad would do this to his own people in his own capital city.
Yes he has the capacity, but what motive. He must know that he had nothing to gain and everything to lose, the Yanks would splat him.
The other lot had everything to gain and nothing to lose, but did not have a known way of delivering it.
So to me that is still open.
Sadly we think that we still rule the world and our god thinks it is wrong so we must step in and zap somebody to show them they are wrong and who is boss, as I said earlier WTF.
The UN was created after the world spent forever at war over religion, race or a squabble in some royal family etc..
We were supposed to have stopped one country taking action on their own for unsupported reasons, and should go through the UN, didn't we learn last time.
Yeh, Russia and China etc, are blocking action at the UN, so sort out how these isues are decided, so progress can be made.
Why do these countries have different views, could their be some truth here.
Do we really want to back the rebels?
Some are good and deserving of help and others a long, long way from that.

Then again we once ruled the world, raped and pillaged the wealth of these areas and took Christianity to them, so god must be British as well as American, so does this give us the right to act outside the UN.
Doubt if many countries in the world would agree.
Let's see where we are in 5 years time?
First thing is to re-hire all the troops that we dumped so horribly after Iraq and Afghanistan, then shut down the Health Service and all Local Authorities so we can pay for the Syria/Iran war, (oops I forget, we will probably have the Spain/Gibraltar war as well by that time and maybe Argentina as well).

Sorry to go on but this country cannot keep doing this unless there is a joint UN effort.
I don't really believe in war as they have never achieved anything, (other than killing millions of people many of them innocent), and it should only happen if we are attacked or UN peace keeping/problem eradication is needed.

Rant over ................... SORRY!

[Willopotomas]

Couldn't agree more.

[D-Rider]

Very glad for a bit of sense from parliament for once.
Military intervention is not the way - and even those that support that action must realise that it is far to early to contemplate that.
It's more likely that Cameron's failing government would like to divert attention from the economy and social damage they are doing and jump on a Thatcher/Blair march in to war to get the country behind them as it's a time when too many people fall into line like sheep.

Really don't understand Howards rant against Chrisianity. It is not imposed from here - it was exported to us from that region. Certainly, over the years it has at times been usurped by people with their own agendas to further their own ambitions and goals but that's not the way of Christianity part of whose message is equality, care of all people irrespective of status and across our man-made national and cultural boundaries.
What's more, did he hear Justin Welby speaking against military intervention in the debate?

[Dalemac]

Howard, what you are forgetting id that Syria has oil. This is not about protecting the Syrian population from chemical weapons, it is about de-stabalising government so that they can put their own puppet in control and have someone to do the dirty with on behalf of British and american oil companies.

[flatlander]

couple of points really
Start with the most trivial Spain / Gibraltar is a traditional thing when the incumbent Spanish govt has something to hide currently the accusations of wrongdoing against Rajoy for example. Being one of the largest beneficiaries of the arms trade Spain could do with a war at any given time.

The economy well to be fair to the current mob it seems a bit harsh to blame them for the blair / brown squandering of the stolen pension funds etc... as I believe Thatcher once said Socialism is fine but what do you do when you run out of other peoples money to spend?

Syria current debacle Labour took the traditional opposition stand for the public tabloid digesters but still agree to support the govt as is also the tradition. To them IMHO it was about distancing themselves from the murderous Blair wars.

how is that homicidal maniac a special envoy to the middle east?

Anyway where am I heading well for me its not that you can't take this sort of action without fear of reprisal somewhere along the line and one day one of these places is just going to empty their arsenalall over the region.

Its not even that I don't want our forces exposed to this unnecessary risk

Its not that its not proven... or the farce of arguing about whether extermination is carried out in the correct way without worrying that any extermination took place at all

Its not the irony of retaliatory or punitive action for a slaughter is to take action which may inevitably lead to yet more death and potentially another slaughter... you killed people in the wrong way so we are going to punish you in the right way ...by killing more people

Its not the lies about it not being about regime change... of course it is it always was and opportunity was the only thing that these megalomaniacs were waiting for.

Its not that yet another British prime minister is happy to make the UK America's largest aircraft carrier

Its a lot more simple I just cannot be fekkin arsed with it all and if I could I'd be saying WTF has it got to do with us?

rant over ... until I realise how much of all this cost could be used to better life elsewhere and hey I know why don't we all just send gas masks NBC suits so that the population is protected or shelters or aid you know people might just be surprised if we all looked to build bridges instead of bombing them

[Kwackerz]

Havent got a view on Syria other than theyre unfortunate pawns in a game of chess between UK/US and Russia.

[Aladinsaneuk]

i listened to a labour politician ysterday insisting that there was a NEED for HARD evidence etc.... - bet he was not so loud in the gulf war..... Twat Blair certainly wasn't

Cameron got it right - open debate, parliament decided - he says he will stand by it

pissed off the sabre rattlers in the white house - never a bad thing

should we have been involved - only as a part of the UN

(Did the frogs used to run the place? - if so maybe they should sort it??)

[HowardQ]

Very glad for a bit of sense from parliament for once.
Military intervention is not the way - and even those that support that action must realise that it is far to early to contemplate that.
It's more likely that Cameron's failing government would like to divert attention from the economy and social damage they are doing and jump on a Thatcher/Blair march in to war to get the country behind them as it's a time when too many people fall into line like sheep.

Really don't understand Howards rant against Chrisianity. It is not imposed from here - it was exported to us from that region. Certainly, over the years it has at times been usurped by people with their own agendas to further their own ambitions and goals but that's not the way of Christianity part of whose message is equality, care of all people irrespective of status and across our man-made national and cultural boundaries.
What's more, did he hear Justin Welby speaking against military intervention in the debate?

As you probably know, I am not religious, and was only commenting that the majority of yanks know that god is American .
Our efforts in that name were in the days of the "Great British Empire".
There are millions of very good religious people of all types who dedicate their lives to helping others.
Unfortunately there are also very many others who use religion for other purposes, and will only be happy when all other religions are destroyed.
The majority of all wars over many centuries have been fought in the name of religion, (you cannot deny that Andy), and this overall area is an incredible example of how bad things can get.
We have Muslims bombing Muslims in Iraq, (WTF is that about).
Here we have one lot of Muslims, (the Government) up against a different lot of Muslims again, with the Syrian Christians helping them??
Then we get the Yanks helping the latter as well.
What certainly happens in every case is kids and innocents get killed in the most terrible ways.
Have we all forgotten the Napalm, Agent Orange plus millions of tonnes of ordnance that ended up being used against innocents in Vietnam??
The pictures of the burning kids running down the road screaming will never leave my mind. (the best war photograph ever.)
Yes this situation is about other things like world power, oil and the fact that countries like Russia want land bases in that area.
The Yanks have Turkey, and we still have our "Sovereign" base in Cyprus , (our toy air force is currently parked up at Akotiri) .

My biggest worry is still Iran versus America, (with little David tagging along waving his toy gun).
That is coming some time soon I suppose, but let's not walk in too quick.

My comments on Gibraltar were based on our reactions.
When Spain got unhappy again, mainly to distract their own people from the shit hole that is their economy, (a good trick they learned for many past UK Governments), what did we do?
We did something that we always did and sent a "Gunboat" in, (well a Frigate or whatever), just like we did so many times in the days of the Empire.
WTF ?
Sit down talk about it and then agree on a way to give it back. We do not need a base controlling access to the Med any more, with cannons hiding in a rock and monkeys laughing at us.
Sadly for you lot I have plenty of time to rant now I am retired.
SORRY AGAIN!

[Dalemac]

Howard,

None of this really matters. As a species, we are heading down a path of total destruction and annihilation by our own hand. And there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, because we all have different view on what is right and wrong. We are not as rational as a species as we need to be in order to survive on the same planet together.

Within the next 50 years we will probably be an extinct species.

[HowardQ]

i listened to a labour politician ysterday insisting that there was a NEED for HARD evidence etc.... - bet he was not so loud in the gulf war..... Twat Blair certainly wasn't
Exactly lets get the facts first and get it right this time

Cameron got it right - open debate, parliament decided - he says he will stand by it
Hope he does but wont if Obama tells him not to.

pissed off the sabre rattlers in the white house - never a bad thing
Totally agree but let's see how long that lasts

should we have been involved - only as a part of the UN
Where I came in

(Did the frogs used to run the place? - if so maybe they should sort it??)
I seem to remember we did that with them recently and that place is still fucked up.
The only thing we do well with Frogs is go to war with them and we have spent a century or more doing that! Are we still at war now, usually feels like it?

My comments added!

[MartDude]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbxfe7DMxVo

[HowardQ]

Howard,

None of this really matters. As a species, we are heading down a path of total destruction and annihilation by our own hand. And there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, because we all have different view on what is right and wrong. We are not as rational as a species as we need to be in order to survive on the same planet together.

Within the next 50 years we will probably be an extinct species.

Can't disagree with that, except for the fact that people have been saying something similar for hundreds of years.
Back in the 60s and 70s that we now remember for long hot summers, my gran used to tell me at the time that all the bad weather we were having then was caused by all the rockets and sputniks plus all the fancy new jet planes flying so high. All that stuff flying through the clouds was causing all the rain and that "no good would come of it, it will all end badly just you see". She lost her husband in WW2 and her dad in WW1 but worried about rockets destroying the world, as did many others at the time.
As you say, we can't do anything much about it, but I rant cos I don't like to see kids being killed.

[Willopotomas]

Cameron is an arse. As is his minion, wassisname.. The Lib Dem idiot. (I've seriously forgotten his name.. haha.. must be that important then!) And Milliband reminds me of the kid in school who objected to everything.. Even if it was a good idea. Just a prick. Most of the cabinet haven't a clue and not many have spines. Gove is about the only one with credibility IMO.. Trying to sort out the education system so it actually means something again is no mean feat.. But again, held back by the PC brigade..

Anyway.. I'm waffling. Syria.. Don't go there.. Well, not yet. If it's likely to spill over in to our country, then yes, we'll need to sort it out. Not in the game of paying to fight someone elses war. Even if they tell us they won't be our best friend any more.

[Kwackerz]

My comments on Gibraltar were based on our reactions.

Sit down talk about it and then agree on a way to give it back. We do not need a base controlling access to the Med any more, with cannons hiding in a rock and monkeys laughing at us.
Sadly for you lot I have plenty of time to rant now I am retired.
SORRY AGAIN!

You're not of a military background are you..

We need Gibraltar. it is a key position for both naval activity of a multinational nature, especially submarines (HMS Rooke) Radar/Comms/Signals Rebro (Devils Tower Camp I seem to recall) and a Strategic Air Base at RAF Gibraltar in much the same way we use Cyprus. it's real estate that can be opened for action within hours.

So yes. We do need it.

Oh and with the restructure of the military over the last decade, we've been working with the cheese eating surrender monkeys very closely for years. Anglo French military relations make our regulars as much intertwined with them as we are with our own TA (now called Army Reserve)


Back to the original thread, Glad we're not intervening, although it's been seen coming for a while.

[fatboy]

I hate shit like this. As with any conflict, attrocities will be comitted by both sides, there seems to be little doubt that the Assad regime are an immoral enemy
Morality dictates that genocidal actions must be stopped,but at what cost ?
This country cannot afford to commit military resources to any more conflicts,so only with full UN backing should we become involved.
And will the next rag head be any better than the deposed murderous bastard ?
Probably not