how do you manage without abs?

[lazarus]

I've had bikes without abs and with it. but I cant help wondering how safe you are without abs - after all, a skid on a bike is only likely to end one way if you arent Rossi or someone like him. And it seems to me that really hard braking and a skid is only a matter of time.

So if you have to do an emergency stop on a wet greasy road and without abs, how do you stay upright?

[D-Rider]

I've had bikes without abs and with it. but I cant help wondering how safe you are without abs - after all, a skid on a bike is only likely to end one way if you arent Rossi or someone like him. And it seems to me that really hard braking and a skid is only a matter of time.

So if you have to do an emergency stop on a wet greasy road and without abs, how do you stay upright?

By controlling the brakes and not locking up (or if you do by letting off and reapplying).

TBH you can brake pretty severely even on a wet road as long as you load your front tyre progressively and don't just grab a huge handful before the weight is transferred and the tyre is doing its stuff.

We did debate the issue on here not that long ago and my feeling was that ABS may well help in certain situations - particularly some of the newer and better designed systems.

Others that have more experience of them than I (I've never ridden a bike with ABS) felt they were no good - and dangerous in some circumstances.

[TC]

For my sins, I was one of those involved in the development of ABS for motorcycles back in the 80's and early 90's.

There are those who will argue (and I am one of them) that ABS is not a safety aid but a hindrance as riders become more reliant on their ABS kicking in and they lose the ability to be able to control the braking of the bike with finesse and appropriate pressure for the conditions.

I have dealt with quite a few crashes where riders have assumed that they can leave their braking until the last moment and then ploughed straight into the side of a vehicle (as an example) where had they used their observational skills better, they would have started to reduce their speed sooner and would have been quite capable of stopping safely and in time.

Follow on from that, that whilst a car with ABS can still steer through a curved path with the brakes on, on a bike, once you go beyond a certain point, then the bike is going to go down regardless, and there some cases (such as my crash) where I made a conscious decision to lay the bike down which is why I am still here today, whereas had I been on the ABS bike, I would have ended up pushing up the daisies.

So how safe are we without ABS? In my opinion much safer, and considerably more skilled than those who place so much faith in ABS.

[fatboy]

Cadence braking, which is exactly like what D/R described, reverting to riding by the seat of your pants,judgement and (maybe painful ) experience.
DO NOT DO THIS WITH AN ABS SYSTEM, cadence braking will stop ABS sensors from working

[Nooj]

So if you have to do an emergency stop on a wet greasy road and without abs, how do you stay upright?

Basic riding ability?

[struv]

i think some extra rider training would be your best option i have had the back wheel in the air two up with luggage during an emergancy stop in torrential rain touring france with no front washout on an xjr1300 and stopped with a foot to spare .modern tyres are fantastic in the wet as said progresive lever pressure is the key if you find you are needing to use cadence your in bother and need an escape route

[lazarus]

So if you have to do an emergency stop on a wet greasy road and without abs, how do you stay upright?

Basic riding ability?

Clearly that helps, but maximum retardation is at the point where the wheels are still rotating but just about to stop doing so and start sliding instead. So the real question is whether you can detect that point as fast as a set of electronics monitoring your tyre rotational speed and whether you can apply cadence braking as fast as the abs system can do.. And like it or not the reaction times of even a small computer built into an abs system are orders of magnitude faster than yours or mine.

TC makes a fair point and he is right. |But for that occasion where the totally unexpected happens or observation fails, I do not believe that manual braking will ever be as competent as abs. Incidentally wasnt abs banned in formula one as it gave the drivers using it an unfair advantage. And they are just a bit more skilled than you or me.

However, what I was asking was how well and how often you lot had handled a skid on a bike. We all did it learning to ride a push bike as kids and some will have done it off road on a motorbike. But for those of us who havent done scrambles etc, just how good are we at skidding on a big bike? I've felt the back wheel go a few times over something like a manhole on a wet road but it has gripped again almost immediately and so that doesnt count.

P.S. I did my bike test in the days when an examiner stepped out from between two cars to check your emergency stop. I guess modern riders are a bit better taught than that

[Kwackerz]

I find vans with ABS are a lot better than vans without. Cars meeh.. never drive them with ABS really. Bikes? Im not old enough to buy a bike fitted with ABS..

I think the biggest thing with any braking is not to panic and grab a handful. Ive had a few 'moments' on the TT600 when I've found myself compromised and had to slam on but never where i've even remotely felt unsafe as far as grip and braking goes. I think maybe as I only use 2 finger braking even when under pressure/panic.. dunno

I remember when it was coming in and there were various slurs against bikes with it on.. think it was Honda tourers.. cant remember now.. probably as at the time it was still in it's infancy..

Be interested to see a Mille with ABS against one without.

[blinkey501]

Your question was how do you stay upright when doing an emergency stop.
When i did my test a lot of moons ago they told me when riding you use 70/30 braking in dry conditions and 50/50 in the wet.
When riding in the wet i give myself more of a chance by thinking sensibly...
I allow more room between myself and the vehicle in front.
I ride wider and slower when passing parked cars, and been sat higher than cars look out for the obvious...
I ride slower on the corners especially when there has been a sunny spell, this is due to lorrys depositing rubber on the corners and when it rains the road becomes more slippy.



I have never ridden a bike with ABS i am too tight to pay the money.

[randomsquid]

Given the choice I'd go with ABS but I'm not fussed enough to worry about not having it.

On the MCN ABS blade test the only person who could stop quicker with it off was a racer, can't remember the name.

My er-6 has ABS, I use it in all weathers and the only time the ABS has kicked in is when I was trying to make it. I was genuinely surprised though at just how good tyres, brakes and bike set up are now.

Can't remember the last skid I had, have the occasional slide but they seem to work out ok if you don't do anything rash. When I was a snot ape I had four crashes linked to a sudden lack of grip but technology has come on and I'm less of a twat.

[SimonDk]

I would love to believe I can make do without abs (avoid bringing myself into that spot). But a few weeks ago misjudged the conditions/lost focus on the second lap of a trackday in slight-to-moderate rain. Knew my tyres were not the bomb in the wet, and therfore tried to build a little heat by modest use of the front brake. Slid away in a fraction of a sec. at between 20 30 mph. BOOM, no way in hell I could have saved that. Dammit.
Rode the rest of the day, which confirmed the combination of wicked slippery parts of the track and the tyres' mediocre grip. Going to the track is always a calculated risk, so is choosing a bike with no abs. IMHO.

[flatlander]

Yes technology has come a long way

I just remember the instructors on the awareness course saying it was generally dangerous because people don't understand what it actually does and expects it to do everything

[HisNibbs]

Ok. I suppose is the short answer.

Never had ABS on a bike but appreciate it in a car. When the front end goes "squidgy" I get off the brakes , maybe try again (hardly cadence braking) but look for another option such as a gap to get on the throttle and out a there....
The last thirty five to fourty years thats worked ok.

[fatboy]

Never had ABS on a bike so cant condemn it.
ABS is a rider/driver aid that is totally reliant on sensors ect. As we all know any component has a finite working life,so if the sensors decide to go to shit then you aint gonna stop in the fail safe way that too many have come to expect....
IMHO ABS can make some folk believe they can safely drive with no regard to road conditoins.
There is no doubt it has impoved safety but is this at the cost of driver awareness ?

[SimonDk]

IMHO ABS can make some folk believe they can safely drive with no regard to road conditoins.
There is no doubt it has impoved safety but is this at the cost of driver awareness ?

Depends on the individual. Like some people do not belong on a bike in the first place, some of them realize this by themselves and quit riding again! ("or I will loose my license/kill myself). If you're levelheaded enough to ride within the limits in the first place, abs won't undermine that - at least it wouldn't for me...