Q's - Rider/Static sag issue & checking oil level
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(...makes a change! ...before anyone else says it! 
Hi Twin Nut,
I'm also on a black 01. I have 6 rings of pre load and 5 1/2 rings through the top yoke. I've also just done the fork oil with 450ml of 5w in each leg. For refetrence I'm 11 1/2 stone and have a Race Teck cartridge conversion in the front and Ohlins rear shock running pretty much max ride heght. I'll have to look up the sag settings when I'm not worse for wear.....
As for checking the engine oil.. my understanding is change oil and filter then put in 2 1/2 liters take it for a 10 minute run then stop and check the site tube. Add oil if required, to ensure that it is about mid way to 3/4 up the tube.
I'm also on a black 01. I have 6 rings of pre load and 5 1/2 rings through the top yoke. I've also just done the fork oil with 450ml of 5w in each leg. For refetrence I'm 11 1/2 stone and have a Race Teck cartridge conversion in the front and Ohlins rear shock running pretty much max ride heght. I'll have to look up the sag settings when I'm not worse for wear.....
As for checking the engine oil.. my understanding is change oil and filter then put in 2 1/2 liters take it for a 10 minute run then stop and check the site tube. Add oil if required, to ensure that it is about mid way to 3/4 up the tube.
Don't put off 'till tomorrow what you can enjoy today
I have just changed my oil & filter this weekend and the "book" states 3.9 litresHisNibbs wrote:my understanding is change oil and filter then put in 2 1/2 liters take it for a 10 minute run then stop and check the site tube. Add oil if required, to ensure that it is about mid way to 3/4 up the tube.
Have I got it wrong? It is the mille manual?If you're changing the filter it's three and a half litres.HisNibbs wrote:As for checking the engine oil.. my understanding is change oil and filter then put in 2 1/2 liters take it for a 10 minute run then stop and check the site tube. Add oil if required, to ensure that it is about mid way to 3/4 up the tube.
Hi,
Well I've changed the oil and filter 4 times now. I think the first couple of times I put in 3 and a bit liters and ran it for a 10 miles as instructed and then had to drain some out.
I've taken to putting less in to begin with and then add 1/2 liter or so. I'm not saying ignore an oil prssure warning light ....
I think to start with 3 liters is probably about right, but more risks over filling.
Well I've changed the oil and filter 4 times now. I think the first couple of times I put in 3 and a bit liters and ran it for a 10 miles as instructed and then had to drain some out.
I've taken to putting less in to begin with and then add 1/2 liter or so. I'm not saying ignore an oil prssure warning light ....
I think to start with 3 liters is probably about right, but more risks over filling.
Don't put off 'till tomorrow what you can enjoy today
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HowardQ
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Iv'e not really been on line over the last couple of days and I've lost this thread somewhwere.
TN come back and ask us the 2nd question again, are we talkin about engine oil or fork oil
Seems to be both at the moment.
Goldies comments on sag were certainly not bollocks -
I am pretty sure TN is much lighter than me, so he would need less preload.
Can't find my notes on Falco settings at the moment, (and have been discussing the daughters wedding plans all day so my my brains gone AWOL), but if he really has only 10 mm of sag now, this doesn't seem much. If the correct figure actually is 30 to 35mm, the bike has too much preload for him and will be pretty solid for road use. Need to wind it off until within the correct range.
All other settings come after you have done this.
As for fork oil levels/volume, I have always had difficulty measuring it with any bike. Easiest way, without correct measuring kit, is to put exact measures in each leg after draining, but you still have to make sure all the oil is out, not always easy via drain plugs, (if you have them), much easier if you have the forks totally stripped. Goldies right, you don't want too much in!
I have only usually used thicker oils to stiffen forks on bikes that did not have any damping adjustment. Did it on my old 1992 Honda CB750F2N and it was certainly worthwhile.
I wouldn't normally bother on a bike that had reasonable adjustment, like the Flaco. If the standard valving doesn't give you the right control you really should re-valve the existing forks if you are that critical, or buy a set of Ohlins if you can afford to spend more money.
I'll try and dig out my notes and check the figures for front and rear sag on the Falco and get back to you later.
Hope this helps.
TN come back and ask us the 2nd question again, are we talkin about engine oil or fork oil
Seems to be both at the moment.
Goldies comments on sag were certainly not bollocks -
Sag is the difference between the top of the spring travel and bottom of suspension travel with a rider onboard. This means you lift the bike with nobody on it to the top of the supension, and measure from the ground to some part of the bike, then you the rider (whatever weight you are) sits on the bike so the suspensions settles to the low point with you on it and you again measure to the same point on the body. The difference between these two heights is the sag, hence it is different for different weights of rider. You adjust the preload to get within the setting range for the specific bike. You might go up bit if you wanted it a bit stiffer cos you carry luggage in the week for work and ride it for fun at weekends solo and don't want to reset each weekend.Goldie wrote:I don't think oil viscosity should affect sag, but the oil level certainly could. More oil = less capacity for compression.
Rider sag is the difference between fork length fully extended (i.e. wheel off the ground) and length with the rider mounted, isn't it? ...or am I talking complete bollocks (again)
I am pretty sure TN is much lighter than me, so he would need less preload.
Can't find my notes on Falco settings at the moment, (and have been discussing the daughters wedding plans all day so my my brains gone AWOL), but if he really has only 10 mm of sag now, this doesn't seem much. If the correct figure actually is 30 to 35mm, the bike has too much preload for him and will be pretty solid for road use. Need to wind it off until within the correct range.
All other settings come after you have done this.
As for fork oil levels/volume, I have always had difficulty measuring it with any bike. Easiest way, without correct measuring kit, is to put exact measures in each leg after draining, but you still have to make sure all the oil is out, not always easy via drain plugs, (if you have them), much easier if you have the forks totally stripped. Goldies right, you don't want too much in!
I have only usually used thicker oils to stiffen forks on bikes that did not have any damping adjustment. Did it on my old 1992 Honda CB750F2N and it was certainly worthwhile.
I wouldn't normally bother on a bike that had reasonable adjustment, like the Flaco. If the standard valving doesn't give you the right control you really should re-valve the existing forks if you are that critical, or buy a set of Ohlins if you can afford to spend more money.
I'll try and dig out my notes and check the figures for front and rear sag on the Falco and get back to you later.
Hope this helps.
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HowardQ
- World Champion
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- Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:20 pm
- Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire, England
Found some of my notes and that 10mm sag figure doesn't look too bad.
Dug out the article by Nick Jefferies and he recommended the following on the Falco with standard Showa suspension -
Front sag on Showa forks was set at 15mm (std range 10 to 15, but he wound it off a bit). He also eventually went for bog standard Aprilia settings on the damping, which are 1 full turn off fully soft on the compression damping and 1 1/4 turns off fully hard on the rebound setting.
The rear sag was set at 10 but surprisingly he didn't really get on with the standard Falco shock. So how you set it depends on which shock you are using.
Dug out the article by Nick Jefferies and he recommended the following on the Falco with standard Showa suspension -
Front sag on Showa forks was set at 15mm (std range 10 to 15, but he wound it off a bit). He also eventually went for bog standard Aprilia settings on the damping, which are 1 full turn off fully soft on the compression damping and 1 1/4 turns off fully hard on the rebound setting.
The rear sag was set at 10 but surprisingly he didn't really get on with the standard Falco shock. So how you set it depends on which shock you are using.
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HowardQ
- World Champion
- Posts: 3921
- Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:20 pm
- Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire, England
I don't know mate I'm confused , (even without talkin about weddings all day). As I said in my first post 10 mm sag seems like too much preload for me, I would have thought that 30 to 35mm sounded about right, then I found this copy of an article on Falco suspension setting buy Nick Jefferies in Bike Magazine and he's talking 15mm front and 10mm rear.
I have some more notes somewhere, so I'll try and find em.
May be tomorrow now though! I've had enough today, trying to tie down who wants what special menus, who may and may not be coming to the wedding after all, (today was deadline day) the ones that do and do not want rooms booked. The guests have all had months to make their minds up and most seem less sure now than when we first asked them. Helluva lot harder sortin this than settin suspension sag, glad I've only got one daughter.
, (even without talkin about weddings all day). As I said in my first post 10 mm sag seems like too much preload for me, I would have thought that 30 to 35mm sounded about right, then I found this copy of an article on Falco suspension setting buy Nick Jefferies in Bike Magazine and he's talking 15mm front and 10mm rear.I have some more notes somewhere, so I'll try and find em.
May be tomorrow now though! I've had enough today, trying to tie down who wants what special menus, who may and may not be coming to the wedding after all, (today was deadline day) the ones that do and do not want rooms booked. The guests have all had months to make their minds up and most seem less sure now than when we first asked them. Helluva lot harder sortin this than settin suspension sag, glad I've only got one daughter.
I was told that set static (i.e. sag without rider) to 9mm front and back, then check you have 2/3 travel left in the suspension and it should be fine, as for Comp/Rebound damping setting, I'll leave that to the pro's, it's a serious black art IMO.
As for the oil business?, it's a complete PITA, mine will NEVER read the same oil level from day to day, 1 day its overfilled, another its close to min, another it's fine.
When I did me service, mine took the recommended 3.5 litres, and then about another 100-200ml to get it to the fill level after a run.
As for the oil business?, it's a complete PITA, mine will NEVER read the same oil level from day to day, 1 day its overfilled, another its close to min, another it's fine.
When I did me service, mine took the recommended 3.5 litres, and then about another 100-200ml to get it to the fill level after a run.
I thought that static sag was useless, how often does your bike ride itself without you onboard?danowat wrote:I was told that set static (i.e. sag without rider) to 9mm front and back, then check you have 2/3 travel left in the suspension and it should be fine
It was invented to confuse ordinary riders to make them stay away from those knobs and screws and leave "black art" to pros ($$$).HQ, 10mm is nearly nothing, unless it is static and for a smooth track
I've heard that golden rule is 25-35% of max susp travel (more for bumpy roads) that is WITH a rider.danowat wrote: As for the oil business?, it's a complete PITA, mine will NEVER read the same oil level from day to day, 1 day its overfilled, another its close to min, another it's fine.
Same here. I don't worry unless I cannot see any oil in the tube (in such case I ride fir 5mins, leave for 10mins re-check and everything is back to normal)
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TwinNut
Oh yes, twas a school boy error and no mistake. What a muppet.......dug out the Ohlins manual and actually read it this time and unfortunately that is what I was measuring. So this time I set it correctly and would you adam and eve it the bike was excellent, still needs a tweak here and there but it felt so much better balanced than before. That'll teach me...ddoohhhh.Goldie wrote:I can't help thinking TN's 10mm is actually the difference between static & rider sag. Apologies TN if I'm way off base!!!
It now feels like it needs to turn a little sharper/quicker at the front (back feels fine) but not too much. I'm assuming I need slightly steeper steering but I don't yet have the option of rear ride height adjustment and currently have four fork rings showing about the triple clamp. What's the approx. max you can sensibly raise the fork legs up (triple clamp down) before she becomes a right 'ol slapper?? I remember F9 said something about this happening to him and wondered how far he'd gone to get her doing that??
By the way, the question about oil level was about engine oil and not fork oil. Still don't know what the definitive method of checking the level is.......anyone got any ideas??
I don't think there is a difference if you add rear hight or lower front - you'll sharpen the geometry thus making the bike more prone to tankslappers either way.TwinNut wrote:I'm assuming I need slightly steeper steering but I don't yet have the option of rear ride height adjustment and currently have four fork rings showing about the triple clamp. What's the approx. max you can sensibly raise the fork legs up (triple clamp down) before she becomes a right 'ol slapper??
Just lower the front and fit the steering damper just in case. Mille stock (crap) ones are not too expensive, and one of them saved my arse at least once.
