The state of the Navy..

[Kwackerz]

You're scratching for crumbs there Kwaks. They are token deployments, often of non combattants as in

"Japan had sent peacekeepers to Cambodia and East Timor, but its 550 troops in the southern Iraqi city of Samawa are the first it has deployed since 1945 to a country where there is active fighting.

They are barred by Japan's US-imposed pacifist constitution from firing their weapons except in self-defence" . The German ship off Lebanon is a spy ship and again non combattant because the German population wont countenance military adventures overseas.

But whatever view you take of these examples, the issue isnt whether you need the forces / bases to do this sort of deployment but whether you need to do these deployments at all. I dont believe we do and I can see a lot of other things we could better spend the money on. Defence forces are for defenbding the UK, but we have no credible threat to us. So instead you are sent to places where we have no strategic interest whatsoever so that Tony can say to Jaques " of course, my friend (gritted teath) we are playing a role in supporting the democratic government (there's a joke) of Iraq / Afghanistan/ Belize / Cyprus etc.

Why else would you want 2 aircraft carriers, ships that could be destroyed in one nuclear blast by a serious oponent.

I cant see how explaining away one German ship counters my factual argument (the japanese im not really bothered about.)
And you fail to mention the rest of Germany 's forces / Europe's deployments? remember your first really arse statement, bold as brass, that Germany had no combatant troops deployed? I believe, well, know you to be the one scratching at crumbs .

Enough of the arguing however, everyone is entitled to their view.. Just please in amongst your ranting, dont confuse Military competence with Political incompetence. If you stopped and thought carefully you would appreciate why some deployments exist

oh but to clarify that a bit

Why else would you want 2 aircraft carriers, ships that could be destroyed in one nuclear blast by a serious oponent

I have (royal I) a complete Army/Navy/Airforce capable of being destroyed by one nuclear blast should I choose to bring back all of the UK's eggs to our little Island basket. ?

[Samray]

You misunderstand Gio ... it's just you they're thumbing their noses at, not us.

[lazarus]

OK Kwaks - I plead guilty to a sweeping generalisation. But I dont think taking a more precise and numerically correct approach to other countries deployments makes any real difference to the argument. There is a real difference between the token gestures made by most big Euro countries in response to US pressure and the UK deployment of (for us) large numbers of troops. There is also a very real difference in willingness to embark on military adventures - other Euro countries stand back, we jump forward.

You are arguing that we need all the kit we have (plus some we dont) plus all the overseas bases so that we can deploy to places like Iraq. I'm not arguing with that. Instead, its my view that we have no real strategic interest in deplying troops outside the UK and from that point of view dont need most of the "assets" we currently have.

The aircraft carriers are a classic example of this. What possible use would they be in the defence of the mainland UK? And if we were in such a situation, our oponent would undoubtedly be able to sink them easily. So they are not for the defence of the UK but to project power overseas. Except of course that we will only have 2 of them, and the cost of building them will have bled the rest of the budget.

But there is another issue. It was always said of the Admiralty that they equipped the Navy to fight the last war, and I think that is still true of the MOD. We are equipped to fight across the plains of Germany against an armoured force coming from the East. But is that the likely scenario? What instead we find ourselves involved in are guerilla / terrorist actions when increased numbers of foot soldiers might be more important than an aircraft carrier.

Anyway, those are my last words on the subject. Are you in the UK or out there Kwaks. Either way, stay safe.

[Kwackerz]

NOT to drag an argument up / out but purely because I dont think many people actually appreciate the extent of international cooperation within Afghanistan, here's an up to date list of who's who in the hottest battle zone in the world. This is just the admitted list of participants... nudge nudge..wink wink..


NATO countries troop contributions to NATO's International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan.
Figures provided by NATO Jan. 26.

United States, 11,800
Britain, 5,200
Germany, 3,000
Canada, 2,700
Netherlands, 2,200
Italy, 1,950
France, 1,000
Romania, 750
Spain, 550
Turkey, 800
Belgium, 300
Norway, 350
Denmark, 400
Hungary, 180
Greece, 170
Poland, 160
Portugal, 150
Bulgaria, 100
Lithuania, 130
Czech Republic, 150
Estonia, 90
Slovakia, 60
Slovenia 50
Latvia, 35
Iceland, 5
Luxembourg, 10

Non-NATO countries:

Australia, 500
Sweden, 180
Macedonia, 120
New Zealand, 100
Croatia, 130
Finland, 70
Albania, 30
Azerbaijan, 20
Ireland, 10
Austria, 5
Switzerland, 5

TOTAL: 33,460

[BikerGran]

That's really interesting Kwack - you're right, I had no idea that so many countries were involved, or the numbers!

I asked Mike if he knew, and he did, but that's prolly cos as an ex tankie, he takes a particular interest.

[Kwackerz]

Iceland, 5

Mark my words, ASDA and Tesco wont be far behind if they see Iceland have started home delivery to Afghan...

[Gio]

There was an article about the navies ships in yesterdays Mail. from over 100 ships in 1982 there are under 50 now And only 2 ships that served in the Falklands are still in the navy now.

Of the 36 ships that took part 4 were sunk, 19 decommisioned, the remaining 11 sold to other navies. Admittedly some have been replaced as they were getting old, but the type 42 destroyers have years left in them.

[scottyni]

sad sad state this nation is in.

we used to have the best forces (prob still are but not as good) in the world but now it's getting beyond a joke.

so glad i left as the whole situation has gotten out of hand. troops are so far stretched but the government doesn't care.

no incentive to stay in these days.