EU constitution petition

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Samray · #16 Post by **Samray** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:23 pm

We didn't elect our current dictator to the post.

D-Rider · #17 Post by **D-Rider** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:48 pm

Samray wrote:We didn't elect our current dictator to the post.

Assuming you mean the PM, well that indeed is always the case - the post of Prime Minister is never elected by the public .... unlike the Presidential systems run elsewhere.

fastasfcuk · #18 Post by **fastasfcuk** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:35 pm

lazarus wrote:no I dont want a vote on it - or to be accurate, I dont want Joe Public to have a vote on it. Because Joe Public wont read the text of the Treaty, wont think it through, and will vote based on blind prejudice and mis-information fed to him by the likes of the Daily Mail.

We live in a representative democrasy - we elect MPs to vote as they thin fit on our behalf. You might or might not think they do a bad job, but at least most of them are interested enough in politics to learn what its all about.

your attitude towards joe public is much the same as our members of parliament,you both think were uneducated working class and unable to make a judgement different to that of the press. when we elected these politicians on our behalve we were told there would be a vote before it was implimented, still waiting.

lazarus · #19 Post by **lazarus** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:59 pm

Who said anything about "working class" ? Personally I dont think classes exist any more, except perhaps as a handy excuse for reverse snobbery.

Do you really believe that the 40 million (or whatever) voters in this country will read the Treaty and understand it? I dont. So the only basis they will have for voting is the sort of cr*p they get from the media.

BikerGran · #20 Post by **BikerGran** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:24 pm

lazarus wrote: Do you really believe that the 40 million (or whatever) voters in this country will read the Treaty and understand it? I dont. So the only basis they will have for voting is the sort of cr*p they get from the media.

And from a government committee which says it is essentially the same as the rejected constitution.

fastasfcuk · #21 Post by **fastasfcuk** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:39 pm

you don't need to read the treaty to know what it's goals are and i don't form my oppinions from reading the press.politicians know we wo'nt read the treaty thats what they're hopeing.

Gio · #22 Post by **Gio** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:26 pm

As anyone knows politicians are lifes retards, unfortunately we have to vote, if we didn't then we'd get the same party in each time by default (even down to the same constituencies and number of seats)

We were promised a vote on the constitution and thats what this is about, its not aboutthe price of petrol or the amount of tax you pay.

I've always been against the EU its full of peasants called euro politicians.

So before you berate the standard of voter in this country Lazarus, just take a look at whats on offer on the continent.

D-Rider · #23 Post by **D-Rider** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:19 pm

What Rot!!

Gio wrote:As anyone knows politicians are lifes retards, unfortunately we have to vote, if we didn't then we'd get the same party in each time by default (even down to the same constituencies and number of seats)

You don't think this is just a teensy weensy generalisation then Gio?
Politicians are a mixed bunch. There are those out for their own gain and advancement, there are those with narrow agendas and there are those that are real men and women of principle (whether or not you necessarily agree with their perspectives). There are pragmatists there are idealists. They are not all the same .... just as the general population is not from the town of Stepford .....
We don't have to vote and, regrettably, not enough people exercise their right to vote - a right that has been won at great sacrifice by a number of people in our history.

If you are SO dissatisfied and you believe others to share that dissatisfaction, why don't we see more people standing for election to bring this integrity that you believe to be in such short supply? TBH I'd be very glad to see that happen ... but it won't as people know there is no chance they will be listened to without "popular" media supporting them.

Gio wrote: We were promised a vote on the constitution and thats what this is about, its not aboutthe price of petrol or the amount of tax you pay.

Well I'm prepared to state that I've not read the proposal - nor the previous version - and Lazarus is right - Joe and Joanna Public will not either (well a few may). In general they will form opinion based on the media.
The direction of the country is not something I wish to trust to the overwhelming influence of the unelected media. Although any political system is imperfect, I feel far safer in leaving it to the consideration of our elected representatives .... some of whom will have given it proper consideration.

Gio wrote: I've always been against the EU its full of peasants called euro politicians.

So before you berate the standard of voter in this country Lazarus, just take a look at whats on offer on the continent.

Perhaps we're now getting to the nub of your position on this - you are against the EU and have some strange views about the intelligence or worth of people that live in other parts of Europe.

Now the EU is not perfect but there is much benefit in it. As for other Europeans (or, indeed, people from elsewhere) I really see nothing that separates them from people from these isles in their ability to make decisions, to think logically or care about similar issues to those that we care about.

fastasfcuk · #24 Post by **fastasfcuk** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:35 pm

yes there's plenty of benifits in it, ask the kinnocks.

D-Rider · #25 Post by **D-Rider** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:37 pm

fastasfcuk wrote:yes there's plenty of benifits in it, ask the kinnocks.

Aladinsaneuk · #26 Post by **Aladinsaneuk** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:13 am

I agree with the points on the great unwashed having no idea on what they would be voting for in a referendum

BUT

if this country had a referendum about the common market, then surely we should have one for this - after all, it does, on the surface, sign away many of our rights.

also, if no referendum, and i think that is a good idea in many ways, then at least have it in parliament, and due to the nature of the beast, it should be a free vote

D-Rider · #27 Post by **D-Rider** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:10 am

Aladinsaneuk wrote:
also, if no referendum, and i think that is a good idea in many ways, then at least have it in parliament, and due to the nature of the beast, it should be a free vote

Quite right ... it should always be a free vote ... I think most of us elect people to represent us where our constituencies are concerned and vote on conscience for wider matters rather than following some party line.
That's one of the things I dislike about our system....

lazarus · #28 Post by **lazarus** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:58 pm

Gio wrote:
So before you berate the standard of voter in this country Lazarus, just take a look at whats on offer on the continent.

Explain Gio! Do you think the voters are less intelligent on the continent? Or is it their worse food you hate? Or their empty roads? Or their health services? Maybe they are less cultured than the average Brit? And more inclined to get falling down drunk? Or are they all cheese eating surrender monkeys? I don't understand - maybe you can explain?

Samray · #29 Post by **Samray** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:26 am

Looks he provisionally signed up to the Lisbon Treaty under the smokescreen of this w/e's sporting hysteria.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 65,00.html