Oil change gone wrong

Message

#16 Post by **mangocrazy** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:54 pm

Dalemac wrote:
mangocrazy wrote:If you take the plugs out (2 on each cylinder, remember), put the bike in 1st gear and you can't push it, it may well be seized. Pulling the clutch in will just prove whether the clutch works or not and will not prove whether the engine is seized or not.
Yeah i don't know why i said to pull the clutch in....possibly something to do with the 12 hours i have been working so far today...

No worries, Dale. Everyone gets brain freeze from time to time. It's just that as an ex two-stroke rider who rode everywhere with at least two digits hovering over the clutch lever, ready to whip the clutch in at the first signs of impending seizure, I quickly realised the flaw in your argument...

wayno · #17 Post by **wayno** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:55 pm

I still ride with a hovering clutch hand out of habit

#18 Post by **mangocrazy** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:19 pm

Just thought Wayne, do you live anywhere near Gawcott and if so, would you know Derek Chittenden?

wayno · #19 Post by **wayno** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:21 pm

No mate, I'm about 40 miles south in high Wycombe

#20 Post by **mangocrazy** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:45 pm

OK, just wondered.

Aladinsaneuk · #21 Post by **Aladinsaneuk** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:09 pm

suggest pulling two plugs - 1 front and rear then turning it over by hand - by crank or by engaging gear and rotating rear wheel

D-Rider · #22 Post by **D-Rider** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:57 pm

Aladinsaneuk wrote:suggest pulling two plugs - 1 front and rear

You and your butt-plug .....

Aladinsaneuk wrote: then turning it over by hand - by crank

.... and it was a fair bet you'd end up hand-cranking

matapaca · #23 Post by **matapaca** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:50 pm

Thanks everyone for the diag and advice. Wanyo when I get this sorted we should meet up for ride and thanks for asking your mate about the engine. I couldn't get onto the computer last night but having read the responses think that it may not all be over for the engine, I need to get it back home to sort it out which will happen on the weekend. Just need to get hold of a van or trailer or push it. A mate of mine is lending me a bike so picking up an XJ1300 tonight - should be fun.

What was the temperature gauge showing when all this happened? If you had seized the engine there should have been major heat issues at the same time; conditions that result in seizures develop a large amount of heat. They also normally make a very nasty noise and lock the rear wheel - at least they did when I rode two-strokes.

Temp was about 85c when I first stopped and the same the second time. It didn't come to a sudden stop - it just lost power and when i pulled in the clutch it cut out.

So, you put in 3.2 litres. Did you measure how much came out? if so, what was it?

I know it's poor practice but I was only checking amount of oil out of the container I will measure exactly what is left in there, current reading about .8l on the bottle. I know that's not really a good gauge as the oil company's may over fill their bottles.

I would have thought too much oil would burst a seal before the big end went. Are there any oil leaks?

No no oil leaks at all.

Have you actually checked to see if it is siezed? See Mango's reply below for the best way to check if it is siezed.

I did go back in the car and try pushing it in 6th gear but it was a half arsed attempt at about 11pm so wasn't in the right frame of mind. There seemed to be a little movement.

Not sure how too much oil would cause the engine to seize, unless it somehow buggered up the oil pump (possibly whipped into a foam by the crankshaft? (not on a dry sump like the v990 though)), effectively starving the engine of oil. Pulling the valve cover off one of the cylinders would be a good indication of oil starvation - the cams will be scorched.

Oil Pump failure was my mates thoughts so I will certainly take the valve cover off to see if cams are scorched.

If you take the plugs out (2 on each cylinder, remember), put the bike in 1st gear and you can't push it, it may well be seized.

This will be my first check.

Could this be oil pump failure, the motor suffering from hydraulic lock up because the pump didn't scavenge ?

Is there anything that would either stop oil getting to the pump or for some reason knacker the oil pump. All was good before I changed the oil.

thanks again for help I will update when I get time to examine the bike in more detail on the weekend, cheers Matt

matapaca · #24 Post by **matapaca** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:55 pm

Thanks everyone for the diag and advice. Wanyo when I get this sorted we should meet up for ride and thanks for asking your mate about the engine. I couldn't get onto the computer last night but having read the responses think that it may not all be over for the engine, I need to get it back home to sort it out which will happen on the weekend. Just need to get hold of a van or trailer or push it. A mate of mine is lending me a bike so picking up an XJ1300 tonight - should be fun.

What was the temperature gauge showing when all this happened? If you had seized the engine there should have been major heat issues at the same time; conditions that result in seizures develop a large amount of heat. They also normally make a very nasty noise and lock the rear wheel - at least they did when I rode two-strokes.

Temp was about 85c when I first stopped and the same the second time. It didn't come to a sudden stop - it just lost power and when i pulled in the clutch it cut out.

So, you put in 3.2 litres. Did you measure how much came out? if so, what was it?

I know it's poor practice but I was only checking amount of oil out of the container I will measure exactly what is left in there, current reading about .8l on the bottle. I know that's not really a good gauge as the oil company's may over fill their bottles.

I would have thought too much oil would burst a seal before the big end went. Are there any oil leaks?

No no oil leaks at all.

Have you actually checked to see if it is siezed? See Mango's reply below for the best way to check if it is siezed.

I did go back in the car and try pushing it in 6th gear but it was a half arsed attempt at about 11pm so wasn't in the right frame of mind. There seemed to be a little movement.

Not sure how too much oil would cause the engine to seize, unless it somehow buggered up the oil pump (possibly whipped into a foam by the crankshaft? (not on a dry sump like the v990 though)), effectively starving the engine of oil. Pulling the valve cover off one of the cylinders would be a good indication of oil starvation - the cams will be scorched.

Oil Pump failure was my mates thoughts so I will certainly take the valve cover off to see if cams are scorched.

If you take the plugs out (2 on each cylinder, remember), put the bike in 1st gear and you can't push it, it may well be seized.

This will be my first check.

Could this be oil pump failure, the motor suffering from hydraulic lock up because the pump didn't scavenge ?

Is there anything that would either stop oil getting to the pump or for some reason knacker the oil pump. All was good before I changed the oil.

thanks again for help I will update when I get time to examine the bike in more detail on the weekend, cheers Matt

Dalemac · #25 Post by **Dalemac** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:17 pm

matapaca wrote:
So, you put in 3.2 litres. Did you measure how much came out? if so, what was it?
I know it's poor practice but I was only checking amount of oil out of the container I will measure exactly what is left in there, current reading about .8l on the bottle. I know that's not really a good gauge as the oil company's may over fill their bottles.

You misunderstood my question, i meant how much oil did you physically drain from the bike before putting the fresh oil in?

If you still have it in a container it might be worth measuring it all out. That should give us an indication as to how much it might have been under/over filled by.

I'd expect the temp to be way hotter than 85 degress before an engine seizure. The fans don't kick in until 94 degrees!

Are you not able to get the bike into neutral then? How have your gear changes been recently? any unusual clutch problems?

wayno · #26 Post by **wayno** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:27 pm

If it was running but with no power then stopped when you pulled the clutch in, that doesn't sound like a seizure to me (not that I have much experience). Maybe the clutch is the problem?? I'm just throwing possible ideas out there for these more knowledgeable lot to think about.

Unfortunately I can't help with a van or trailer, but will offer muscle for tea.

wayno · #27 Post by **wayno** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:30 pm

As the bike is a dry sump wouldn't you have to massively (and I mean massively) over or under fill it to cause a complete failure.

Surely if you overfill it, the tank will be brimmed and the pump will pump out the normal amount, and if there is enough oil to fill the engine (from underfilling) and have a bit left over, then the pump will just circulate less (and cause problems, but not within a mile).

Correct me if I'm being stupid, this is just my idea of a pumped reservoir system.

Firestarter · #28 Post by **Firestarter** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:06 pm

matapaca wrote:
mangocrazy wrote:First thing is to make sure that the problem really is as bad as you think it is. What did you do precisely that you think caused this problem, and what are the symptoms? Don't rush into the grief of an engine change without being sure of the facts and your diagnosis.
Firstly in my defense I was rushed and doing other stuff with the family. I got the bike up on the stands and drained the oil, , I know it should have been hot but had to take my opportunity to get the job going. took out the filter drain plug, and then filter and left it for about 6 hours. put in new filter, put bolts back in and put about 3,2 litres back in and level in tube I think was on max. in the evening I put the carbon cans that I repacked back on, started it breifly as loud and kids asleep and all OK. Monday morning off to work, cans very loud but thinking back I could hear a knocking sound and also a scissors type sound if that makes sense but in a panic to get to work set off, lost power after a mile and saw oil level way to high so dropped some oil till back down to max, stupidly went on, cut out again and level up high again. so parked up and beat myself up for being a dick. checked airbox and no oil in there, she wont turn over on button. any other check i can make? thanks

Did you do any other work at the same time as the oil change? Anything that could have dislodged the sidestand cut-out switch or tip-over switch?

Not saying you didn't, however is there a chance that you assigned a noise you heard to a problem, but in reality the noise had always been there?

What happens when you thumb the starter (not saying do it again, just what happened when you did try and restart). Seized or seizing, would have thought that the starter would struggle, likely the dash lights would dim as the starter fought against the seized piston(s)?

The bike had clearly warmed up when the problem started, if it was overfilled I would have thought there would be some excess oil in the airbox, as you had plenty of time for it to expand and overflow into the airbox

Pinched from af1 forum (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/show ... 3949cd3366):

The book calls for 3.9 US qt. (3700cm3) w/o filter change
and 4.1 qt. (3900cm3) with filter change.
A lot of people seem convinced that it's better to run a bit less than above, but what ever.

If anything, is 3.2 litres a bit low?

wayno · #29 Post by **wayno** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:14 pm

Just reading the other thread, could it be possible that you put the wrong length filter in and maybe something has got past it?

#30 Post by **mangocrazy** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:53 pm

From what's been said, I don't think it's quite the doomsday scenario you feared. First thing is to check with a plug out on each cylinder (as Pete says, only need to pull one plug per cylinder to check) and see if engine turns over. Once you've established that (and assuming the engine turns over), it's down to diagnosing what caused the misfiring/cutting out you experienced.

I wouldn't start buying new engines on ebay just yet...

Start from first principles and try to establish what area the problem is in.