Non-Starting Falco after engine swap

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KitchenSync · #16 Post by **KitchenSync** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:16 pm

Well - I've one very tired Falco engine sitting on my garage floor in Nottingham if it was at all possible to rob it for parts to de-Futura-ize your engine.

cmdrew · #17 Post by **cmdrew** » Wed May 28, 2014 8:18 am

Thanks for the offer - luckily the old engine was also included (I insisted just in case of this) so hopefully any parts I need will be on that engine. Just waiting for the flywheel puller now and hopefully that will be the last piece of the jigsaw.

Very impressed with all of the help and advice I have had here!!!

cmdrew · #18 Post by **cmdrew** » Wed May 28, 2014 7:03 pm

Quite disappointed tonight

. The puller arrived and I quickly swapped over the rotors and re-assembled the bike to test it out. Still not starting and still spitting back through the TB so looks like the timing is still out for some reason. getting close to just sticking another engine in now!

Still no codes reported but I'm going to next confirm that the injectors are firing b y holding the throttle wide open while trying to start it. Hopefully it won't spit flames at me again!

fatboy · #19 Post by **fatboy** » Wed May 28, 2014 8:05 pm

Yu can test the injector wiring using an LED test lamp plugged into the injector wiring plug, or a Noid lamp. It has to be a LED or noid because of the very low current draw.
You can use a screw driver or better still a stethoscope on the injector body,with any listening device you will hear an obvious click with every injection.
Does the fuel pump prime when you switch the ign on ? You should hear the pump run for 2 or 3 seconds.
Are you sure your ecu is ok for a Futfut lump ?
Good luck with this one !

cmdrew · #20 Post by **cmdrew** » Wed May 28, 2014 8:29 pm

Well I've swapped over all of the electrics so I would hope that the basic engine is essentially the same. Its injecting fuel as I ran it with the throttle wide open and could see the fuel spraying - then it ignited and shot flames out of the throttle body which was exciting

So all of the essentials are there - fuel and spark and the fuel is being ignited. So from my experience it can only be that the fuel is being ignited at the wrong time. This was what I thought all along and I assumed that with the falco throttle bodies, cam sensor, crank sensor, stator and rotor that all bases were covered but obviously not.

D-Rider · #21 Post by **D-Rider** » Wed May 28, 2014 8:33 pm

cmdrew wrote: So from my experience it can only be that the fuel is being ignited at the wrong time.

Can't fault your logic with that one.

Valve timing?

cmdrew · #22 Post by **cmdrew** » Thu May 29, 2014 11:02 am

Just found out that the previous owner swapped the front cylinder exhaust cam sprocket from the old engine to the new to get the cam sensor to work. Now what's the betting that the timing is 180 degrees out... Would explain the flames coming from the intake.

The fron cylinder is quite difficult to get at with the engine in. Has anyone swapped a cam or sprocket with the engine in the frame?

#23 Post by **mangocrazy** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:10 pm

cmdrew wrote:The fron cylinder is quite difficult to get at with the engine in. Has anyone swapped a cam or sprocket with the engine in the frame?

Doubt it's any more difficult than doing the valve clearances, and I've done those on the front cylinder with the engine still in the frame. Much easier with the airbox and radiators off... And to get at the shims the cams have to come out.

cmdrew · #24 Post by **cmdrew** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:15 pm

Well a night of ups and downs...

After realising that the previous owner had fitted the exhaust camshaft sprocket from the Falco I decided to check the cam timing and it was miles out. Where the 'IN' and 'EX' marks on the cam are supposed to point horizontally towards each other at TDC front cylinder, while the 'IN' was correct, 'EX' was at the 10 O'Clock position.

Next step I took the cam out and rotated it so that the 'EX' marks lined up correctly but now when turning the engine by hand it would lock up as the piston was hitting the exhaust valves

OK - take the cam out and compare it with the Falco cams and it is obvious that the mounting holes for the sprocket are in different positions - resulting in it being impossible to get both the cam timing and the ignition timing (which is set by a sensor on the exhaust cam sprocket) correct at the same time.

Now I had the cams from the Falco but they were out of the engine so which is the exhaust and which the intake? They both look identical so I had to try and identify which was which. Put the sprocket on, re-timed the cams and put it all back together.

Well its starts... sort of... but won't run for long. Although I have filled the tank with oil I'm not getting any oil pressure and it seems to be rattling somewhat - probably because of the mis-matched cams.

So to summarise - a Futura engine will not fit in a Falco! The generator and other electrics are easy enough to swap over but the difference between the cams is I think a major issue. Even if I can get it to run I doubt it will run well as the front and rear exhaust cams are different.

Now to swap it out and replace with an RSV lump I think!

D-Rider · #25 Post by **D-Rider** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:40 pm

Oh well ..... it's been an education ..... and thanks for sharing it as we all now know the answer for sure about whether a Futura lump will work in a Falco.

At least with the RSV lump, you will be going down a well trodden path and you won't end up with the lower power outputs of the Futura.

It'll be worth it in the end!

Viking · #26 Post by **Viking** » Fri May 30, 2014 12:06 am

cmdrew wrote:Now to swap it out and replace with an RSV lump I think!

Wow... what a lot of work.

I have to ask, though. Why didn't you just drop the RSV engine into the Falco to start with?

cmdrew · #27 Post by **cmdrew** » Fri May 30, 2014 7:17 am

Thing was I bought the bike with the Futura engine already installed but not running. The whole idea was to have a project and get it running so I was not bothered about how much work was involved - just the experience. I have to buy the RSV engine so obviously was hoping that the Futura would run without too much messing around.

I suspect that an engine change without a hoist or crane will be considerably more work than I have done so far but at least now I know - you can make a Futura engine work in a Falco but there are a lot of bits that need to be swapped over the worst of the lot being both exhaust cams and it's really not worth the hassle

Dalemac · #28 Post by **Dalemac** » Fri May 30, 2014 8:02 am

Before dropping the engine is it worth checking the oil pump is working on the futura engine?

Seems like you are very close!

cmdrew · #29 Post by **cmdrew** » Fri May 30, 2014 8:18 am

Yes - well I intend to get it running but even if it does run I will always have the problem that now there is a different (profile?) camshaft in the front cylinder to the rear, the valves will need re-shimming and I've still got to resolve the oil pressure. It may be fine as I have only had the engine running for a few seconds but I couldn't get the light to go out just on the starter with the injectors disconnected. I wonder if I should put some oil directly into the crankcases as I assume the pump needs to prime itself...

fatboy · #30 Post by **fatboy** » Fri May 30, 2014 6:13 pm

12 out of 10 for effort !