Exhaust Mid Section Work

[mangocrazy]

I'm sure we've been through this before, but are there any dyno charts knocking about that show the difference between a standard Falco setup and the modded version like Blinkey's on a Falco? No other mods, just the mid-section mods?

The only charts I've seen have been for an RSV Mille, which already has a weaker midrange than the Falco so is starting from a lower base from which to make improvements.

I tend to agree with Jay that the improvement on a Falco would be less noticeable than on the RSV, simply because the Falco already has a stronger midrange.

[D-Rider]

I doubt it Graham as it is essentially a Mille mod that we've carried across to the Falco for those with a single pipe setup.
I think there are a few with the full Mille pipework with this mod on their Falco (for example, Pete) - though probably no dyno charts - let alone comparative with the same bike with stock setup.
For those with the 2:1 with Falco headers, I only know of Greg, Myself and Jay having done this. Jay's is a bit different to Greg's and mine. I don't believe any of us have dyno charts.

Basically with the motors being identical to the earliest Milles (other than the gearbox and fuel mapping - which will have needed to be fiddled with on the Falco anyway to get it to run well with the 2:1), the Mille maps are our best guide.

Note: There is another difference though - the earlier Milles that had basically the same engine as the Falco had the earlier exhaust mid section - not the one that gets modded - so things aren't quite the same.

[mangocrazy]

Put it down to my skeptical nature...

I've seen on more than one occasion where people say 'look at this, 10hp more in the mid-range (or top end or wherever) from just this simple mod', when they neglect to mention all the other stuff they've done to the bike.

Which is why I'd like to see a straight dyno comparison.

So the early Mille engines were really identical to the Falco in all respects? When did they start to diverge? I vaguely seem to remember valve sizes getting bigger and cams getting lumpier fairly quickly.

[D-Rider]

Put it down to my skeptical nature...

I've seen on more than one occasion where people say 'look at this, 10hp more in the mid-range (or top end or wherever) from just this simple mod', when they neglect to mention all the other stuff they've done to the bike.

Which is why I'd like to see a straight dyno comparison.

So the early Mille engines were really identical to the Falco in all respects? When did they start to diverge? I vaguely seem to remember valve sizes getting bigger and cams getting lumpier fairly quickly.

I've never made such claims but I have seen dyno charts of Mille's with this mod where this mod was being developed - hence not making other changes at the same time.

The Mille did get bigger valves and modified cams - but the first ones were basically the same (other than gearbox) - the Falco took the Mille lump but when it was changed (around 2000 if memory serves) the Falco did not get the bigger valves and revised cams.

TBH the best thing as far as I'm concerned is that the mid section I have allows the 2:1 exhaust and the retention of Falco oil tank & cooler.
While being modded for that it was worth getting the link pipes added as I'd also been interested in that mod.

[mangocrazy]

I've never made such claims but I have seen dyno charts of Mille's with this mod where this mod was being developed - hence not making other changes at the same time.

The Mille did get bigger valves and modified cams - but the first ones were basically the same (other than gearbox) - the Falco took the Mille lump but when it was changed (around 2000 if memory serves) the Falco did not get the bigger valves and revised cams.

TBH the best thing as far as I'm concerned is that the mid section I have allows the 2:1 exhaust and the retention of Falco oil tank & cooler.
While being modded for that it was worth getting the link pipes added as I'd also been interested in that mod.

No, I wasn't saying you'd made any such claims, Andy. Can understand how it's a worthwhile mod for you, retaining OE oil tank and cooler, plus hopefully getting some more mid-range. Have you noticed a real difference in the mid-range?

I've idly wondered on more than one occasion what difference the updated Mille cams would make to our engines. I wouldn't really want to go to the expense and bother of bigger valves as I value the mid-range too much. I do remember a piece on AF1 where Micah (I think) stuck some Mille cams in the Falco, dialled them in and got some worthwhile HP gains. But it would be a faff and probably cost a lot for not much benefit. And it could compromise the mid-range.

[D-Rider]

I've never made such claims but I have seen dyno charts of Mille's with this mod where this mod was being developed - hence not making other changes at the same time.

The Mille did get bigger valves and modified cams - but the first ones were basically the same (other than gearbox) - the Falco took the Mille lump but when it was changed (around 2000 if memory serves) the Falco did not get the bigger valves and revised cams.

TBH the best thing as far as I'm concerned is that the mid section I have allows the 2:1 exhaust and the retention of Falco oil tank & cooler.
While being modded for that it was worth getting the link pipes added as I'd also been interested in that mod.

No, I wasn't saying you'd made any such claims, Andy. Can understand how it's a worthwhile mod for you, retaining OE oil tank and cooler, plus hopefully getting some more mid-range. Have you noticed a real difference in the mid-range?

I've idly wondered on more than one occasion what difference the updated Mille cams would make to our engines. I wouldn't really want to go to the expense and bother of bigger valves as I value the mid-range too much. I do remember a piece on AF1 where Micah (I think) stuck some Mille cams in the Falco, dialled them in and got some worthwhile HP gains. But it would be a faff and probably cost a lot for not much benefit. And it could compromise the mid-range.

From what I remember, I changed my exhaust to the latest configuration following a period in which I'd not ridden (probably away on work) and before that the roads being all crappy and greasy so had not been out for any big blasts - so perception of the new v old was not really that possible with any degree of certainty. I believe it was somewhat better but I can't really be objective and won't make such claims without being certain.
As for the bigger valves and re-profiled cams, my feeling is they are mainly for top end gains and are not going to help the real-world nature of the Falco.

[cornish mafia]

I had mine Dyno'd but had the exhaust mod / single sided / air box / 54's fitted already .......it started at 114 bhp 68 ft/lbs rear wheel with it all just fitted on and now is reading 116.5 bhp ( the .5 makes all the difference , just ask the women !! ) . It WAS worth doing it as it was running like a bag of nails but now is smooth and runs perfect, it took 64 runs to get it there though. He did have on the third graph showing 120 bhp with 68 ft/lbs but now it reads 116.5 bhp rear wheel and 70.8 ft/lbs.........may try that graph just to see if it makes any difference ......Anyone any ideas why i couldn't keep that or is it like i think he had to lose BHP to get it running smooth ?

Does the mod make a difference I would say yes BUT you only really notice it if you're nailing third upwards and staying about 8 thou + on the clock in the gears , that reads as 3rd - 4th gear around here on the Cornish race tracks........sorry roads !!

[Aladinsaneuk]

to help clarify the story behind the mid section mod

the mod was originally developed by Jorge of Renegade on race milles

the idea was then taken on by other racers - Mark Harris being one of note - He runs MHP

a few years ago, both andy and myself, seperatly, had started researching this - I could not get hold of Jorge, but I did spend an hour or so chatting with Mark Harris

The idea, for a mid range performance boost on the Milles was certainly proven - there is a story that Aprilia themselves were extremely curious about what renegade were doing as the renegade bikes were out performing the factory bikes....

Going on a little further, a chap on aprilia performance forum - BEFORE it evolved into the reborn rsvr.net called RedRatBike started developing them and then offering them for sale - I shared with him the dimensions of tubes used etc to help with the development

he posted up back to back results of the dyno runs on a small valve mille engine that confirmed what was already suspected

With regard to the cams, slotting the cams does make a small but discrnible difference - radialfalco and schlosser have both done this iirc - both have said that it was not a huge performance increase

my own view, on my arse dyno, is that it does amplify the power between 4500 and 8000 revs - it is almost like a super charger kicks in - this was noticible on my bikeeven with my other mods

[blinkey501]

I still think it is wasted on the main roads pete...Sorry. It might be all singing and dancing but tbh i did it has i had the mid section out. Thats it.
I honestly would not do it again has i will not reap the benefits.

[fatboy]

Regardless of any performance gains, that's a top bit of fabrication there Blinkey,very nice work ! !

[Aladinsaneuk]

Maybe jay - but that was on the roads in Wales that neither of us knew

Roads I know, fast A roads local to me, the power is useable.... And appreciated

Perhaps when the weather improves and you get the bike running on your local routes then you may have a different view ;)

[blinkey501]

Regardless of any performance gains, that's a top bit of fabrication there Blinkey,very nice work ! !

Thanks dude

[blinkey501]

Perhaps when the weather improves and you get the bike running on your local routes then you may have a different view ;)

Perhaps

[HowardQ]

If we are talking comparisons, l think we need to consider a few other things.
The main thing that gave the Falco a good mid range was supposedly the twin pipe set up, although this was negated a bit by two pretty restrictive cans.
I would like to see how a middle of the road modified Falco with decent cans and either a Rene/Evo induction kit or a simple K&N like mine compares with a similar Falco with a single sided exhaust with this mid pipe mod.
(i.e. no other major mods on either, larger throttle bodies etc.).
This is probably the most common set up on the forum.
Never had mine on a dyno but I do know how much stronger the midrange felt after the above simple changes.
It would be an interesting comparison.
Having said that I have always let it be known that I prefer twin pipes, standard or high level, so mine will stay that way.

[mangocrazy]

+1, Howard.