arrgh - its broken down :(

[HowardQ]

lol yeah

though in fairness I have 10 years of fairly trouble free riding behind me, this is definitely an unusual run of bad luck..

I just hope that my bad luck cup is now empty before I go away on this trip!

I think we are in some way matched up, I've had hardly any problems over six years, you seem to be getting my share, (I know I should never have said that), hope it gets better for you soon mate.

[MartDude]

).

As for relays failing due to a weak battery

With a weak battery you may get the clack clack clack of the relay dropping in and out. This happens as the relay engages, the starter pulls a heavy current, the poor battery terminal voltage is pulled down, this reduces the relay coil voltage to a point where it is insufficient to hold the relay on, it drops out cutting the feed to the starter, the battery recovers, the relay coil is re-energised pulling the relay on, current is drawn by the starter and the cycle repeats ... and you hear the clack clack clack of the relay.
This is the only real issue that affects the relay when the battery is weak ... I really can't think of how it might cause it to fail.

It's widely reported ( ok, on Futura forums) that this knackers the contacts in the solenoid , leading eventually to failure
http://www.apriliafutura.co.uk/atoz/solenoid.shtml

[markymark]

The wiring mod should ONLY be done if your bike really needs it - there is a danger of overcharging your battery if you just do this as a matter of course as a precautionary measure.

There is no risk of overcharging from the wiring mod. It's the regulator's job to regulate, not the wiring loom. Even if you parallel up the wiring with a solid copper bussbar the voltage shouldn't reach an overcharging level. The wiring mod also doesn't bypass any wiring loom fuses, so no protection has been compromised.

Again, I only speak for my sample of 1 Falco, but this Falco was supplied fresh from the factory with rubbish charge system wiring that brought the charge voltage down to a useless level that meant sluggish starting and dashboard resets were common. With the wiring mod I get a a healthy charge voltage and these problems disappeared. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the starter solenoid failures have been due to poor battery charging caused by poor charge circuit wiring in the first place... Maybe even sprag clutch issues?

[D-Rider]

).

As for relays failing due to a weak battery

With a weak battery you may get the clack clack clack of the relay dropping in and out. This happens as the relay engages, the starter pulls a heavy current, the poor battery terminal voltage is pulled down, this reduces the relay coil voltage to a point where it is insufficient to hold the relay on, it drops out cutting the feed to the starter, the battery recovers, the relay coil is re-energised pulling the relay on, current is drawn by the starter and the cycle repeats ... and you hear the clack clack clack of the relay.
This is the only real issue that affects the relay when the battery is weak ... I really can't think of how it might cause it to fail.

It's widely reported ( ok, on Futura forums) that this knackers the contacts in the solenoid , leading eventually to failure
http://www.apriliafutura.co.uk/atoz/solenoid.shtml

An interesting article but not entirely correct. It's true that when the contacts open you may get some arcing but you will get that arcing every time the contacts open from a normal start - in fact you'll get bigger sparks from a good battery as it's terminal voltage is not being pulled down and it can deliver greater current.

The first Falcos were given relays rated to 50A and the latter ones 100A - but none were particularly good as the switching contacts seem prone to oxidation. The thing about the Yamaha and Scooter Assassins relays is that they appear to have better contacts than either of the Aprilia ones.
Don't be concerned as to whether you source a 100A or 150A relay - this is just what they are rated to deliver - a good quality 100A one is quite adequate.

The wiring mod should ONLY be done if your bike really needs it - there is a danger of overcharging your battery if you just do this as a matter of course as a precautionary measure.

There is no risk of overcharging from the wiring mod. It's the regulator's job to regulate, not the wiring loom. Even if you parallel up the wiring with a solid copper bussbar the voltage shouldn't reach an overcharging level. The wiring mod also doesn't bypass any wiring loom fuses, so no protection has been compromised.

Again, I only speak for my sample of 1 Falco, but this Falco was supplied fresh from the factory with rubbish charge system wiring that brought the charge voltage down to a useless level that meant sluggish starting and dashboard resets were common. With the wiring mod I get a a healthy charge voltage and these problems disappeared. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the starter solenoid failures have been due to poor battery charging caused by poor charge circuit wiring in the first place... Maybe even sprag clutch issues?

Sorry, but your first statement is wrong and is contradicted by your second paragraph. The wiring mod is done to eliminate voltage drops between the charging system and the battery - mainly through contact resistance in the brown connector.
I've not done the mod myself but from information posted by others showing the battery voltage before and after the mod there IS a danger of shortening battery life through charging at a voltage that is too high for good battery life.
I'm not saying the wiring mod is a bad thing but it should only be done on those bikes that actually need it. Yours was obviously one of those.

[markymark]

).

As for relays failing due to a weak battery

With a weak battery you may get the clack clack clack of the relay dropping in and out. This happens as the relay engages, the starter pulls a heavy current, the poor battery terminal voltage is pulled down, this reduces the relay coil voltage to a point where it is insufficient to hold the relay on, it drops out cutting the feed to the starter, the battery recovers, the relay coil is re-energised pulling the relay on, current is drawn by the starter and the cycle repeats ... and you hear the clack clack clack of the relay.
This is the only real issue that affects the relay when the battery is weak ... I really can't think of how it might cause it to fail.

It's widely reported ( ok, on Futura forums) that this knackers the contacts in the solenoid , leading eventually to failure
http://www.apriliafutura.co.uk/atoz/solenoid.shtml

An interesting article but not entirely correct. It's true that when the contacts open you may get some arcing but you will get that arcing every time the contacts open from a normal start - in fact you'll get bigger sparks from a good battery as it's terminal voltage is not being pulled down and it can deliver greater current.

The first Falcos were given relays rated to 50A and the latter ones 100A - but none were particularly good as the switching contacts seem prone to oxidation. The thing about the Yamaha and Scooter Assassins relays is that they appear to have better contacts than either of the Aprilia ones.
Don't be concerned as to whether you source a 100A or 150A relay - this is just what they are rated to deliver - a good quality 100A one is quite adequate.

The wiring mod should ONLY be done if your bike really needs it - there is a danger of overcharging your battery if you just do this as a matter of course as a precautionary measure.

There is no risk of overcharging from the wiring mod. It's the regulator's job to regulate, not the wiring loom. Even if you parallel up the wiring with a solid copper bussbar the voltage shouldn't reach an overcharging level. The wiring mod also doesn't bypass any wiring loom fuses, so no protection has been compromised.

Again, I only speak for my sample of 1 Falco, but this Falco was supplied fresh from the factory with rubbish charge system wiring that brought the charge voltage down to a useless level that meant sluggish starting and dashboard resets were common. With the wiring mod I get a a healthy charge voltage and these problems disappeared. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the starter solenoid failures have been due to poor battery charging caused by poor charge circuit wiring in the first place... Maybe even sprag clutch issues?

Sorry, but your first statement is wrong and is contradicted by your second paragraph. The wiring mod is done to eliminate voltage drops between the charging system and the battery - mainly through contact resistance in the brown connector.
I've not done the mod myself but from information posted by others showing the battery voltage before and after the mod there IS a danger of shortening battery life through charging at a voltage that is too high for good battery life.
I'm not saying the wiring mod is a bad thing but it should only be done on those bikes that actually need it. Yours was obviously one of those.

I'm not so sure about this. The mod will bring the charge voltage back to what it should be. If it is going too high then the issue is with the regulator, not the wiring.

Or in other words, if you're already getting a healthy charge voltage at the battery, then the voltage drop across the harness is already low and improving the wiring isn't going to do much, you might get an extra fraction of a volt or so, but nothing that will radically change the battery lifetime.

[D-Rider]

Or in other words, if you're already getting a healthy charge voltage at the battery, then the voltage drop across the harness is already low and improving the wiring isn't going to do much, you might get an extra fraction of a volt or so, but nothing that will radically change the battery lifetime.

True - that could certainly be the case for some - but that would just make the mod fairly pointless on those bikes.
It's a while since I've looked at this but I'm fairly sure I remember some people posting up post-mod measured voltages that I'd not be happy to charge the battery at.
Although the regulator should manage the voltage, Aprilia will have assumed some voltage drop through the harness and designed things with this in mind - along with tolerance of the regulators' output voltage from one to another.
As I said before, do it if it needs it but first make sure your connectors are clean - you may be able to avoid a job that's a bit of a PITA.

[MartDude]

Didn't intend to open a can of worms.
I've no idea how similar/dissimilar Futura alternators & reg/rects are to Falco ones. However, there's something weird about the Fut charging system - OEM alternator & reg/rectifier don't seem quite up to the job; there's a voltage drop at higher revs, and failures of battery & solenoid are generally attributed to this. The wiring mod and/or after-market reg/rect is acknowledged to be the solution.
Don't know about the Falco forum, but there's a plethora of threads on this on the AF1 Futura forum.

Just wondered if there's any similarities?

[anzacinexile]

I'm with D on this one. I to had a low voltage at the battery and a AGM battery wants about a 1/2v more than a conventional type.

After measuring the volts at the battery BUT before attacking my wiring, I simply cleaned all the connectors (not just the brown jobbie) by applying liberal amounts of switch cleaner and making and breaking the connectors repeatedly.


Result - 14.6v at the battery up from 13.7v, just what an AGM wants so I'm of the opinion that the standard setup is OK as long it gets a bit of TLC occasionally

[Kwackerz]

So have you fixed it now Herby?

[markymark]

I'm with D on this one. I to had a low voltage at the battery and a AGM battery wants about a 1/2v more than a conventional type.

After measuring the volts at the battery BUT before attacking my wiring, I simply cleaned all the connectors (not just the brown jobbie) by applying liberal amounts of switch cleaner and making and breaking the connectors repeatedly.


Result - 14.6v at the battery up from 13.7v, just what an AGM wants so I'm of the opinion that the standard setup is OK as long it gets a bit of TLC occasionally

This makes sense - the problem with the harness must be at the connectors, and although I did it as part of the mod, I don't think adding extra copper wire is the real fix, it is monkeying about with the connectors. I suspect the crimp assembly of the connectors may have been the problem on my bike, and soldering them up to add the extra wiring was the real fix.

[D-Rider]

Trouble is solder joints on connectors tend to fail at the point the solder ends - i.e the wire snaps due to fatigue as it always bends at that harsh interface between the solder and the wire. This is one of the main reasons that crimp connections are used. TBH there really should be no problem with a well-made crimp.

[furygan man]

...seem to be off track...did Herb get it fixed...did he get away on his travels???

[HowardQ]

Let's hope his silence means he did get away!

[anzacinexile]

Trouble is solder joints on connectors tend to fail at the point the solder ends - i.e the wire snaps due to fatigue as it always bends at that harsh interface between the solder and the wire. This is one of the main reasons that crimp connections are used. TBH there really should be no problem with a well-made crimp.

A complete no-no on aircraft for that reason

[herbacious]

yeah all sorted im away, just had to get a new set og tyres looking fprward to scrubbing them in tomorrow :)

On my mobile so typing is a pain, all good though!!