The place to discuss any issues with your Aprilia, share tips and handy reference links
Moderators: Aladinsaneuk, MartDude, D-Rider, Moderators
-
D-Rider
- Admin
- Posts: 15560
- Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:09 pm
- Location: Coventry
#1
Post
by D-Rider » Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:43 am
Falco Fuel Lines
To keep this thread manageable, I shall lock it - but comments and suggested improvements can be made here:
https://www.ridersite.com/viewtopic.php?t=13083
General Information / Guidance:
- The content of this thread relates to the Falco, however other Aprilias will almost certainly be similar. Nevertheless workshop manual instructions may vary as may hose lengths and diameters etc.
The following should not be regarded as an authoritative guide – you should satisfy yourself of the correct information and the correct ways of doing things.
Nevertheless, it may help you in that quest and save you some time …. it’s taken me a long time to find and then read through sources of information and try to figure out what seems to be correct.
Remember that whatever you choose to do on your own bike is your own responsibility – not mine or this Forum’s.
The Falco Workshop Manual contains Aprilia’s instructions on maintaining and servicing the fuel supply system. This should be your primary resource for removing, servicing and replacing the fuel pump assembly.
If you do not have a copy already the Workshop Manual can be downloaded from Martin Poll’s website
(Martin is a forum member and his website is an excellent resource):
It may be that the instructions in official workshop manual together with genuine Aprilia parts are all you need for this job however, the Falco was designed before Ethanol was commonly added to fuel. We are familiar with the problems it causes for the fuel tanks and given that it was not common practice to fit ethanol resistant hoses at that time, it is highly likely that the genuine hoses are not resistant. Of course they may be but who wants to take that chance?
Therefore, a few hints may help you to work out what to do.
Fuel Lines Service Schedule:
- According to Aprilia’s workshop manual, you should check your fuel hoses every 8 months and replace them every 4 years …. and the implication is that this applies equally to those fuel lines between tank and throttle bodies and those within the tank. I’m guessing that few (if any) have followed this schedule - so this is probably long overdue for many of us.
See section 4.1.2 of the manual (around page 113 of the pdf)
Reading through forums suggests poor hose condition can be a cause of poor starting / poor running.
Fuel Lines within the tank and the Fuel Filter:
The parts considered in this thread are:
- * The Fuel Filter (item 8)
* The two hoses that connect to the fuel filter (items 7 and 14)
There are some other parts you could replace (o-rings etc) but I’d suggest you check their condition and decide what you need to do.
Fuel Filter:
- You could buy the Aprilia filter – there are 2 listed – one for the early bikes at about £40 + VAT and one for the bikes from 02 onwards at about £26 +VAT (I presume either is OK and this was probably just a cost-down).
However the guys on the AF1 forum identified an alternative – the FRAM G4777 (as fitted on the Nissan Terrano). You can get them from eBay at a typically wide variety of prices – the one I bought was £6.86 delivered.
Assuming the guys on AF1 are correct regarding its suitability, that’s a far better price.
The Hoses:
- As for the hoses, they need to be:
* Hose 7 in diagram: Compatible with SAE J30R10, length 150mm
* Hose 14: Compatible with SAE J30R10, length 45mm
The spigots they fit on the fuel pump and the standard fuel filter measure 8mm in diameter - so the hoses need to be a little under 8mm internal diameter.
The advice given on http://www.volksbolts.com/faq/fuelhose.htm is summarised in the following picture:
PLEASE NOTE: In this instance we are looking at 8mm fittings !
Hose Option A:
- R10 hose is not easy to find in Britain and various other places (and if you do find it, it’s normally expensive) however, I have found an alternative which seems to fit the bill - the Cohline Type 2190 hose.
Spec is in this pdf:
I've noticed it is rated for use up to 6 Bar and the Aprilia Workshop Manual suggest that the supply side of our systems runs at 4.5 Bar (see section 4.1.2 of the manual) – so although I’d like a bit more headroom, I'm guessing this will be fine. The 7.3mm inside diameter (14.5mm outside diameter) hose sounds about right for the 8mm fittings.
Cohline rubber in tank fuel hose with 7.3mm internal bore. This will easily fit over an 8mm outlet. Both the inside and outside walls of the Cohline 2190.0615 fuel hose is resistant to fuel, making this hose suitable for in tank applications.
Can withstand petrol, E15 rated flexible fuels, diesel and biodiesel fuels. Has a working temperature range of -40°C to+70°C.
Other specifications: 7.3mm I.D. 14.5mm O.D. Maximum working pressure of 6 Bar with 20 Bar burst pressure. 70mm smallest bend radius.
The Cohline Type 2190 hoses are available on eBay:
But are also available from here for less:
One thing to be aware of is that the minimum bend radius of this hose is 70mm (presumably to stop it kinking). For the hose between the pump and the filter, there is a 180 degree bend – requiring at least 140mm (5.5 inches). Clearly this is unachievable within the confines of the tank. I think that this will require the hose to be cut and a couple of 90 degree elbows to be inserted. Again, finding the right ones is not easy. Acetal is resistant to ethanol but most elbow fittings don’t give a pressure rating … so I thought I’d go for brass ones until I learned that ethanol and brass do not work well together …. so, I guess, acetal it must be.
Hose Option B:
- I have found an alternative that doesn’t require cutting the supply hose and fitting elbows. A kit is available from USA via eBay that is designed for BMWs, Ducatis, MotoGuzzis and Aprilias. It includes R10 rated flexible hose, rated at 15 Bar and appears very likely to meet our requirements.
It looks as though one kit should be enough to change the hoses on a couple of pumps (though extra clips will be required).
For what it's worth, this is the option I've gone for.
Hose Option C:
- Also, just in case you prefer to use them, the Gates SAE J30R10 hoses I’ve found on eBay are:
Clamping the hoses onto the other components:
- You can certainly use the screw clamps such as those that come with the flexible hose kit mentioned above (Option B), however you may choose to go for the click together clamps that are similar to those that Aprilia use on their hoses. Reading around on this and taking advice from Mangocrazy, it seems that the Oetiker 167 clamps are the ones to go for. You will need to specify the correct size based on the outside diameter of the hose you use.
These clips can be sourced from various places including eBay (just search for Oetiker 167)
You will also need a tool to tighten them – again eBay is your friend – this is the one I have bought (though at the time of writing, I’ve not used it)
Reassembling into the Tank:
- Just one more handy tip for when you reassemble the fuel pump assembly into the tank.
Follow the Workshop Manual but be aware that there is a more recent version of the workshop manual to the one available on Martin Poll’s website. I have been unable to find it online but it has been referred to in a post on the AF1 forum. kzmille reports that it is the version issued 11-02.
That version of the workshop manual advises to apply Loctite 518 to the large O-ring that seals the interface between the pump assembly and the tank (Item 6 in the diagram).
I would think that this is a very prudent thing to do to in order to prevent leaks.
You can find Loctite 518 on eBay (but as with all Loctite products, check the use-by date before buying)
Last edited by
D-Rider on Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
“Scientists investigate that which already is. Engineers create that which has never been.”
-- Albert Einstein
-
D-Rider
- Admin
- Posts: 15560
- Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:09 pm
- Location: Coventry
#2
Post
by D-Rider » Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:44 am
External Fuel Lines between the tank and the Throttle Bodies:
General Information / Guidance:
- The content of this thread relates to the Falco, however other Aprilias will almost certainly be similar. Nevertheless workshop manual instructions may vary as may hose lengths and diameters etc.
The following should not be regarded as an authoritative guide – you should satisfy yourself of the correct information and the correct ways of doing things.
Nevertheless, it may help you in that quest and save you some time …. it’s taken me a long time to find and then read through sources of information and try to figure out what seems to be correct.
Remember that whatever you choose to do on your own bike is your own responsibility – not mine or this Forum’s.
The Falco Workshop Manual contains Aprilia’s instructions on maintaining and servicing the fuel supply system. This should be your primary resource for removing, servicing and replacing the fuel pump assembly.
If you do not have a copy already the Workshop Manual can be downloaded from Martin Poll’s website
(Martin is a forum member and his website is an excellent resource):
It may be that the instructions in official workshop manual together with genuine Aprilia parts are all you need for this job however, the Falco was designed before Ethanol was commonly added to fuel. We are familiar with the problems it causes for the fuel tanks and given that it was not common practice to fit ethanol resistant hoses at that time, it is highly likely that the genuine hoses are not resistant. Of course they may be but who wants to take that chance?
Therefore, a few hints may help you to work out what to do.
Fuel Lines Service Schedule:
- According to Aprilia’s workshop manual, you should check your fuel hoses every 8 months and replace them every 4 years …. and the implication is that this applies equally to those fuel lines between tank and throttle bodies and those within the tank. I’m guessing that few (if any) have followed this schedule - so this is probably long overdue for many of us.
See section 4.1.2 of the manual (around page 113 of the pdf)
Reading through forums suggests poor hose condition can be a cause of poor starting / poor running.
External Fuel Lines between the tank and the Throttle Bodies:
The parts considered here are:
- * The Fuel Delivery Line (item 17)
* The two hoses that form the Fuel Return Line (items 15)
* The Fuel Return Line Coupling (items 18 & 20)
* The provision of a new coupling in the Fuel Delivery Line
- The return line has a quick-release fitting half way along its length and it’s a bit of a pain that the feed line doesn’t. Clearly it will make it much easier to pull the tank off to get at the stuff below if we can fit quick release fittings to both feed and return lines (no need to drain the tank down).
Firstly the QD Couplings:
- You may choose not to add one to the Delivery Hose and just re-use the one that is in the Return Hose. If so, skip this section and just go to the section on the hoses.
Some Background regarding QD Couplings:
- This is a bit of a can of worms which reveals differing opinion, contradictory technical guidance and limited choice of parts. Nevertheless I can give an overview of my personal understanding based on what I’ve read.
One bit of general advice would be to go for product of a reputable brand – not some cheapo look-alike (same deal with the hoses).
Plated Brass or Plastic (Acetal):
- Chrome plating the brass components avoids the issues between brass and ethanol and brass parts are more robust – however they are significantly more expensive.
Acetal parts are not only cheaper and lighter but they are less likely to wear the finish on anything they run alongside. Also in the case of the CPC fittings (which are the only quality ones I’ve found to be readily available), the Acetal ones are moulded with a guard near the release clip to make unintended releasing more difficult. The brass ones don’t have this.
Now, what seems to be the consensus of opinion as to whether to use Acetal or Brass couplings – especially for the higher pressure delivery line?
I've researched a bit on AF1 and they advise against use of the plastic QD fittings - particularly on the high pressure side. For example, the following thread has a number of people that comment:
My feeling is that the plated brass ones are probably better but I do wonder:
- * whether those discussing this appreciate that our high pressure line runs at only 4.5bar
* whether the failures at the retaining groove may be more a factor to do with frequent tank removal for track/race use rather than careful and infrequent uncoupling
Please note that the above is just speculation.
Also bear in mind that CPC worked with BMW to develop their Acetal couplings for both the delivery and return lines for their R1150 and K1200 series motorcycles (see P7 of the following http://www.tom-parker.co.uk/file/litera ... le-250.pdf)
If I’ve decoded the part number correctly (which I’m pretty sure I have) the PLCD 17005 VMBLK is just a PLCD17005 part in black with the BUNA-N (Nitrile) seals changed for FKM (Viton). Although you can’t order this part off the shelf, they do sell these parts (PLCD1700X V) in a natural whitish colour … and also with plated brass variants. These are their Fuel Line Coupling series.
http://www.tom-parker.co.uk/file/produc ... e-8145.pdf
This is great …… but the down side is that our standard hoses are about 6mm inside diameter and if you want to use the plated brass fittings in the Fuel Line series, you have a problem as the CPC catalogue does not show the male part of the coupling in brass with a barb for a 6mm hose. It is however available in Acetal.
Now, for the Delivery Hose, we are not constrained to use 6mm hose as we could specify banjos with bigger barb fittings. The Return Hose does not afford that luxury as it must fit on 6.5mm fittings at the pump and throttle bodies.
So, for the Return Hose, the options are:
- * Re-use the standard plastic coupling
* Use the CPC Acetal fuel line couplings with barb tails for 6mm hose (PLCD17004V + PLCD22004V)
* Use CPC plated Brass couplings with BUNA-N seals with barb tails for 6mm hose (LCD170-04 + LCD220-04)
(actually you can get the brass female coupling in the fuel line series with Viton seals LCD170-04V)
This opens the debate on the suitability of Viton seals versus Nitrile seals. This is where the information you read is contradictory. Some sites say Nitrile deals with ethanol better than Viton, some say the reverse. Some say Nitrile is fine with Ethanol for hoses but not for o-rings whereas some specialist seal providers say it’s fine.
All in all the picture is unclear but I would say that more of the authoritative sources suggest you should use Viton and as CPC bothered to modify their Nitrile sealed LC and PLC ranges for use as fuel line couplings by fitting Viton seals, I guess that’s the way to go where possible.
The debate then comes down to whether you prefer a Nitrile sealed brass connector or a Viton sealed Acetal connector. It is possible to replace the Nitrile o-rings with Viton ones – but I don’t know whether the internal valves also contain Nitrile seals.
Another point to note is that from data taken from the standard ranges with Nitrile seals, the pressure ratings of the brass couplings is 17.3bar and the acetal ones 8.3bar. Both of these are well above the 4.5bar fuel pressure in the Delivery Hose. Figures are not given on the data sheets for the Fuel Line range but logic would suggest that they are similar.
LC Series Data: http://www.tom-parker.co.uk/file/produc ... e-8135.pdf
PLC Series Data: http://www.tom-parker.co.uk/file/produc ... e-8080.pdf
The Delivery Hose Coupling:
- The main options are:
- * Use the CPC Acetal fuel line couplings with barb tails for 6mm hose (PLCD17004V + PLCD22004V)
* Use CPC plated Brass couplings with BUNA-N seals with barb tails for 6mm hose (LCD170-04 + LCD220-04)
- (actually you can get the brass female coupling in the fuel line series with Viton seals LCD170-04V)
Opt for 8mm hose rather than 6mm hose, choose banjos accordingly and use one of the following options:
* Use the CPC plated brass fuel line couplings with barb tails for 8mm hose (LCD170-05V + LCD220-05V)
However those options use either the Acetal parts for which the retaining groove on the male is said to be a weak point or use exclusively the much more expensive brass parts.
I wonder whether a hybrid solution might work – an acetal female part with a male brass part – reducing cost and avoiding the suspected area of weakness. Of course this is only an option on the Delivery line unless you are happy with nitrile seals on the male connector of the return line (due to the lack of availability of a male brass part with viton seals for 6mm hose).
I think I’m likely to go for Acetal Fuel Line Series male and female connectors on both Delivery and Return lines but change the Delivery Hose to 8mm so that I can swap the male fitting to plated brass if I have any problems with the Acetal parts
The Hoses:
- The hoses need to be:
- * Hose 17 in diagram: Compatible with SAE J30R9, length on my bike is about 61cm
* Hoses 15: Compatible with SAE J30R9, on my bike the length of one was about 18cm and the other 26cm
The Aprilia Workshop Manual suggest that the supply side of our systems runs at 4.5 Bar (see section 4.1.2 of the manual) – therefore the hoses need to be able to cope with this pressure – plus some reasonable headroom.
Measuring the internal diameter of the old hoses suggests both are about 6mm (1/4”)
The spigots the return line attaches to at the Fuel Pump and the Throttle Bodies (actually the pressure regulator) measure approx. 6.5mm in diameter - so the hoses need to be a little under that size.
The advice given on http://www.volksbolts.com/faq/fuelhose.htm is summarised in the following picture:
The Return Hose:
- I believe you want SAE J30R9 hose with an internal diameter suitable to fit on the spigots on the base of the fuel pump and the pressure-relief valve. These measure 6.5mm diameter. The measured length of each part of the hose on my bike was 18cm and 26cm from the ends to the QD Coupling. These dimensions may act as a guide but measure your own to see what you need.
At the end of this thread, I’ve provided a lot of links that should help you choose your fuel hose. I’m giving no guarantees that any of them are suitable – you can satisfy yourselves. This is a link to the one I’ve ordered (again – I’m not guaranteeing that it’s correct): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161927585134
It’s a reputable brand (Codan), SAE J30R9 with a rated working pressure of 10bar and has an internal diameter of 5.6mm and an outside diameter of 12mm
To fix it into the spigots and the QD Coupling, you can use screw clamps or Oetiker clamps. I’m using these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290634400596
The higher pressure Delivery Hose:
- The standard hose is a braided hose connected to the fuel pump assembly and the throttle bodies by banjos.
I don’t believe that it is essential that it is externally braided – provided that it is rated sufficiently for the fuel pressure (4.5 bar) and that it isn’t going wear by rubbing on things. In fact the opinion that seems often to be expressed is that it can be better not to have external braiding as this makes it very difficult to inspect for wear/cracks etc.
At the end of this thread, I’ve provided a lot of links that should help you choose your fuel hose. I’m giving no guarantees that any of them are suitable – you can satisfy yourselves.
If you are not fitting a QD Coupling or are going for the CPC Acetal Fuel Line Couplings with barbs for 6mm hose, there is no reason not to use the same hose as on the Return Line (provided you’ve selected one that can cope with the 4.5 bar pressure in the Delivery Line)
If you are going for the CPC plated brass fuel line couplings (or the 8mm acetal versions) you will need hose that is a little under 8mm inside diameter. Once again, select your own but I’ve gone for this: https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/hi ... metre-2240
It’s a reputable brand (Cohline), suitable for E15 fuels with a rated working pressure of 10bar and has an internal diameter of 7.3mm and an outside diameter of 13.5mm
Measuring the Banjos on my bike suggests the OEM ones to be M12 (the OEM ones on the bike had an outside diameter of about 20mm – but that’s not so critical). Clearly the tails to the fuel pipes need to be the barbed variety suitable for the hose you are using (probably 6mm or 8mm) Once again (with no guarantees) there are links at the end of the thread and the ones I’ve ordered are:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280739026733?var=580085972324
The hose will need to be secured to the banjos with screw clips or Oetiker Clips - see the comment for the return hose.
You may also wish to replace the aluminium washers that seal the banjo joints – but Aluminium washers can normally be re-used (especially if you anneal them).
Last edited by
D-Rider on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Scientists investigate that which already is. Engineers create that which has never been.”
-- Albert Einstein
-
D-Rider
- Admin
- Posts: 15560
- Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:09 pm
- Location: Coventry
#3
Post
by D-Rider » Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:45 am
Reference Links:
- Mangocrazy’s guide to changing the hoses on his VFR
General Info on hoses
AF1 Forum Threads
- Fuel Line QD Fittings
Internal Fuel Lines & Filter
Aprilia Workshop Manual
CPC QD Couplings – BMW coupler (p7)
Hose – External
- 5.6mm R9
5.5mm Full Bio – 10bar
6mm Cohline Type2122 – 7bar
5.5mm Cohline Type2122 – 7bar
5.6mm Codan 3133 -10bar
In Tank Cohline 2190
In Tank Gates
Banjo M12 with 6mm barb
Cohline Spec Sheet
Fuel Filter (Fram G4777)
EnDuraLast In-Tank hose kit
Oetiker Pliers
Oetiker 167 Clips
QD Fittings
- Tom Parker
- Brass:
- Fuel Line - Brass
LC Series - Brass
Acetal:
Spec Sheets:
- Fuel Line Spec Sheet
LC Series Spec Sheet – Brass
PLC Series Spec Sheet – Acetal
Full Coupling - Plastic
Spare O rings
Female -Plastic
Male - Plastic
Female – Plated Brass
Oetiker clamps
“Scientists investigate that which already is. Engineers create that which has never been.”
-- Albert Einstein
