Ethanol

[MartDude]

Just been re-reading some of our threads on this, & also on AF1. I was prompted to do a bit of googling, & came across a few scraps of information which may be useful.

DISTRIBUTION OF FUEL IN THE UK

The way that fuel is distributed in the UK makes it very difficult to give an accurate and up to date picture in the newsletter about actual ethanol content in petrol at any time.

The DfT have suggested that the FBHVC be a clearing house for data from the fuel distributors so that members can have some idea of how much ethanol is in petrol in their local area. In general the premium fuel grades from all suppliers will have a lower ethanol content, and this will continue to be the case for the foreseeable future.

There are around 40 terminals distributing petrol in the UK and it should be remembered that there is not a direct link between the retail brand and the operator of the terminal so the information below does not mean that all Super retailed under Esso, Total, Conoco, Murco etc brands is ethanol free.

As at the end of April the situation was as follows:

Exxonmobil – operate 5 fuel distribution terminals, ethanol is not blended into Super Unleaded at any of these
Total – operate 4 distribution terminals (one jointly with Conoco), ethanol is not blended into Super at any of these
ConocoPhilips – operate 3 (further) terminals, 2 don’t supply Super, the third doesn’t blend ethanol into Super
Murco – operate 3 fuel distribution terminals, ethanol is not blended into Super Unleaded at any of these
Valero – operate 6 fuel distribution terminals, ethanol is not blended into Super Unleaded at any of these
Ineos – operate 2 fuel distribution terminals, 5% ethanol is blended into Super at these
The FBHVC intend to improve the frequency and accuracy of this information and will publish updates on the website.

(From http://fbhvc.co.uk/2012/06/05/newslette ... june-2012/)

Not pasting the whole of this next one - too long - but take note of the Excel link near the end - list of Total sites selling ethanol-free petrol

As Ethanol is only added in the final stage of fuel distribution this is easily possible. I have contacted the major fuel suppliers and asked them directly about the addition of Ethanol in the petrol they sell. The results vary, but generally speaking…Super Unleaded fuel is far less likely to have Ethanol blended into it than standard Unleaded. But this will change as the regulations force the fuel companies to increase the amount of bio fuel they sell. (This information was correct at the time of asking…Feb 2011)

BP Ethanol is added at 5% to unleaded petrol at all sites across the UK. BP Ultimate (super unleaded petrol) does not have Ethanol added, except in the South West of England.

Esso Ethanol is added at 5% to unleaded petrol at most sites in the UK. Esso Super Unleaded petrol does not contain Ethanol, except in the South West of England (Devon & Cornwall)

Shell Shell has repeatedly refused to answer the question. It is therefore an assumption only, that all Shell petrol should be considered to contain 5% Ethanol.

Texaco Ethanol is added at 5% to unleaded petrol. Texaco Super Unleaded petrol does not contain Ethanol.

Total Ethanol is not added to any Total fuel (including standard unleaded petrol). Except in the North West and South East of England.

http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/wes ... pdate.html

[MartDude]

And this

http://www.sam-manicom.com/2012/03/a-qu ... f-ethanol/

Note particularly these passages

At current E5 blend levels

- Some fibreglass fuel tanks (mostly on motor cycles) are incompatible
- Some aftermarket fuel tank sealants are incompatible
- These would need to be replaced to run vehicles on E5

* If historic vehicles are to use future E10 blends

- Carburettor jets and needles may need changing
- Fuel hoses and seals may need replacing

* Alternative is to use ‘protection grade’ fuels (currently this means the 5% ethanol level)



After this report was published, the following information was forwarded:

The author says ‘I have seen a couple of reports saying that E10 is ‘definitely not’ going to be introduced in 2013.
As indicated, UK targets for biofuel uptake are set at 5% for the 2013/14 financial year as an average across all petrol and diesel supplied. It is therefore correct to say that there is no necessity for suppliers to introduce E10.

There is though nothing to prevent fuel suppliers marketing E10 if they wish, so it is not possible to categorically say that no E10 will be marketed in 2013. However, as discussed at the meeting it is not expected that there will be a major shift to E10 (and any pumps dispensing E10 would have to be marked “Not suitable for all vehicles etc”).’

From what I've glanced at so far, the only way to avoid ethanol is use the higher-octane 'premium' petrols. I'm tempted to try a tank or two anyway, just to see if fuel consumption is improved.

[D-Rider]

So in summary, if you want to stand a chance of avoiding Ethanol, you have to pay for the expensive fuel ..... and then you might still not avoid it (and probably won't if you live in the west country).

Thanks Mart for your research.

I note this only covers the "brands" - I bet a lot of us buy our fuel where it's cheapest ..... supermarkets (I certainly do).
Is there any info from Tesco, Asda, Morrisons (the forum favourite ) and Sainsburgers?

[mangocrazy]

Good work, Mart. I think that one thing we can and should do (and I mean 'we' as motorcyclists, not just this forum) is to press for full labelling of all pumps as to whether the fuel dispensed is E0, E5, E10 or whatever. That way we at least know what we're getting and an informed choice can be made.

Much as I sneer at the publication, I suspect only by getting something like MCN behind this will we be listened to...

[D-Rider]

Good work, Mart. I think that one thing we can and should do (and I mean 'we' as motorcyclists, not just this forum) is to press for full labelling of all pumps as to whether the fuel dispensed is E0, E5, E10 or whatever. That way we at least know what we're getting and an informed choice can be made.

Much as I sneer at the publication, I suspect only by getting something like MCN behind this will we be listened to...

Great idea

[Syltiz]

And Total don't run any petrol stations in the UK any longer - they sold that side of their business to Shell and Rontec. The name "Total" will only be used for service stations under licence for 2 years from Nov 2011 and then you will only see Total in relation to aviation fuel, lubricants and other bits.

[Kwackerz]

Tesco supplies its forecourts with Super Unleaded 99 Octane (Research Octane Number). The fuel is a blend of 5% bio-ethanol, and has been available since mid-November 2005, at selected filling stations across the UK. This Fuel is supplied to Tesco by Greenergy.

Momentum:
http://www.tesco.com/Momentum99/product ... -specs.asp

I take as read that their normal petrol is full of ethanol:

Ethanol is to Petrol (gasoline in USA) what biodiesel is to diesel with both Ethanol and Biodiesel being referred to as biofuels. Ethanol (an alcohol) is primarily made from corn grain starch. When added to petrol it reduces toxic emissions and increases the octane of the fuel and so it can be compressed more before it spontaneously ignites - a good thing. At present many filling stations in the UK have 5-10% ethanol in their petrol, so you are probably using ethanol without realising it. This is called E5 (5% ethanol 95% petrol) or E10 (10% ethanol 90% petrol). Tesco for example in conjunction with Greenenergy have been selling E5 petrol containing Brazilian sugar cane ethanol since 2005.

cambs scooter club were discussing this a while back with some interesting links:
http://www.cambridgescooterclub.org/php ... f=1&t=2022

[Aladinsaneuk]

Hate to sound American but surely this needs a class action?

[back_marker]

To be honest this is something that isn't going to go away - all we are doing is fending off the inevitable. My outlook on it is that any profiteering by the oil companies aside, the use of ethanol in fuel is helping to keep us supplied with fuel as it becomes more scarce which is no necessarily a bad thing.

I think the real focus should be on ensuring that our bikes and cars are modified where required to tolerate the use of ethanol in fuel, and putting pressure on manufacturers to use compatible components on new bikes. While I had the Falco in bits over the winter I took the opportunity to seal the inside of the tank to reduce the expansion effect that we suspect modern fuel is causing. Since then I have noticed that despite being coated with a thick layer of epoxy on the inside, the tank is gradually shrinking back to it's original size as it is becoming easier to lift the tank. The only drawback is the loss of a small amount of tank capacity (probably around a litre).

So far there don't seem to be any other issues however I am aware that I may have to replace the fuel lines at some point in the future, once again a relatively simple fix to ensure that I ccan still get fuel for the bike at a relatively affordable price for years to come.

[SimonDk]

"European law requires that everywhere in the EU fuel with 10% ethanol is clearly labeled"
http://www.epure.org/news/E101

IIRC there was a heated debate in Germany last year for a period, before the big manufacturers stepped up and said 'our cars do not have a problem with E10'... But still I think a widespread introduction was postponed?
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... %2C00.html

[mangocrazy]

I'm in the unfortunate position that every vehicle I own bar one (my Transporter T4 van) has a problem with ethanol. The Falco's fuel tank problem is well documented, but my old VFR750 and Lancia Beta Spyder both run carburettors and fuel lines made before ethanol in petrol was even thought about. In a worst case I could wind up replacing all brass and old rubber components in the fuel path on both vehicles. There is even talk of ethanol attacking the zinc in carb bodies at higher concentrations.

At the very least I'm resigned to coating the inside of the tank on the VFR and Beta to seal the steel tanks against rust attack from the water content in Ethanol. I may very well follow back marker's lead and do the same to the Falco.

The only way forward that I can see is that government mandates at least one E0 pump on every forecourt. Personally, I can't see that happening but labelling of Ethanol content on all pumps would be a sterter.

[Kwackerz]

To be honest this is something that isn't going to go away - all we are doing is fending off the inevitable. My outlook on it is that any profiteering by the oil companies aside, the use of ethanol in fuel is helping to keep us supplied with fuel as it becomes more scarce which is no necessarily a bad thing.

I think the real focus should be on ensuring that our bikes and cars are modified where required to tolerate the use of ethanol in fuel, and putting pressure on manufacturers to use compatible components on new bikes. While I had the Falco in bits over the winter I took the opportunity to seal the inside of the tank to reduce the expansion effect that we suspect modern fuel is causing. Since then I have noticed that despite being coated with a thick layer of epoxy on the inside, the tank is gradually shrinking back to it's original size as it is becoming easier to lift the tank. The only drawback is the loss of a small amount of tank capacity (probably around a litre).

So far there don't seem to be any other issues however I am aware that I may have to replace the fuel lines at some point in the future, once again a relatively simple fix to ensure that I ccan still get fuel for the bike at a relatively affordable price for years to come.

if you fancy doing a quick 'how to' on the tank overhaul; the how, what with, why and like, I foresee that being useful to many..

[back_marker]

Will do. I think i posted about it before I did it so I will tag it onto the end of that one if I can find it. Won't take long, theres not a lot to it really.

Just to reply to what Mango wrote, this is not really any different from the process of bringing in Unleaded petrol and the demise of four star, at least you don't have to start replacing valve seats. I am in a similar position with regard to the VFR as the wife has one, not to mention the motocross bike that although only a couple of years old, is carbed and the RS125 that I am planning on getting to play with in the near future. I still think that this is something that we're just going to have to accept and treat as the embuggerance that it is as I can't see it going away unless a miraculous alternative is discovered.

At the end of the day the powers that be are always pretty determined to force old vehicles off the road and onto the scrap heap so why expect them to act on this?

[back_marker]

Write-up of tank sealing job now done. See here

https://www.ridersite.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9216#99292

[BikerGran]

I'm assuming that your tanks are made of some kind of plastic? But what about metal tanks - if water seperates out from the fuel I can foresee a problem with the inside of the tank rotting?

Maybe I should seal mine - undented tanks for the GT550 are like rocking horse poo!