Not again...............

[Falconihlist]

Not having stripped the starter motor off the engine yet, I would agree that a blown fuse could possibly be the cause. I am thinking that it is a pre engaged starter, in which case, it is getting the required feed to engage the pinion, but not to turn it over, which would cause the relevant chatter at the relay. Definitely worth a try at swapping the fuses if there is a spare next to it.

[Falco9]

Latest update.................

Checked (and replaced) both 30amp fuses which were both OK. Removed starter motor and checked it ...........nothing obviously wrong, the brushes look OK but the motor didn't spin as easily as I thought it would (I've nothing to compare it with ot to if I'm being honest) so I re-attached the power cable and hit the start button with the motor removed but now resting on the engine casings.

Now I get a single click from the solenoid but nothing at the starter motor, I reckon it should at least spin or try to do something but its as dead as a dodo. Stripped the motor again and double checked the brushes etc.. but with the same result..........nowt!

Now I'm no expert (as most of you know) but I thought the motor would drive the starter gear outwards and engage the flywheel, having looked at the motor, the final bearing is on the shaft and doesn't move (slide) I'd have thought it should slide or something should to allow the motor to engage and release but for the life of me I can't see how can happen whilst this bearing is in its current position. Shouldn't this bearing be housed in the end casing? (where I think it should be) If so then I know why its knackered!! I've tried "reasonably" forcefully to move the bearing but its seizied in that position





So am I right in thinking its knackered????? I'm not sure how else to check it works? can it be refurbished or should I start looking for a replacement?

Have I said how much I hate electrics

F9

[DavShill]

I so wish I could help Rich but this is way beyond my limited technical/mechanical skills. Hope you get it sorted soon - good luck.

[Falconihlist]

From what I can see of that, it looks like the pinion does not fly forward to engage a gear, more like the speed of the starter motor against the gear and passing through the sprag gets the engine to crank over.

I think that with the ignition switch on, then the thin wire runs a signal, to allow the relay to send it's full charge through the motor. I may be totally wrong on this though. This is assumption, as I can see no overspeed device or return spring on the pinion.

If it had a solenoid bolted on I would have said the hold on coil is knackered.

Just had a look at the wiring diagram, and if you have checked the relay for resistance, and the fuse, then the only things I can think of, are continuity between the relay and starter motor, starter to earth, or the motor is done.

[anzacinexile]

Starter motor is permanently engaged to the sprag clutch. Nothing moves in or out, the sprag clutch is a one way device so when the starter drives, it spins the motor but when the motor is running, the one way clutch just spins free

[Falconihlist]

Thought as much, having not seen any release mechanism. In that case, it will be resistance checks along the lines and components.

[Chabby]

Short the nuts on the solenoid with a screwdriver. If the starter spins your solenoids knackered .

If it doesn't, it's a power related problem (battery or connections to it, connection to starter) or your starter motor's goosed.

You could try jump lead straight to starter from a car battery or similar just to be sure. Make sure it's held firmly or it will leap off the bench (ask me how I know)

[flatlander]

seeing as i have no idea maybe this would help

[HowardQ]

I'm probably a bigger Numpty than you on electrics Rich.
Excuse me whilst I do a brain dump, some of this may be accurate most might be complete bollox.

I thought all starter motors on cars and bikes had bee pre-engaged for many years now so there is no flying gear that engages with the ring on the flywheel anymore.
Anybody ............ Is this correct?

In the old days with cars, the teeth on the starter cog would sometimes wear after contstantly trying to mesh cleanly with the flywheel ring gear, causing regular replacements. You knew when it had locked up solid, because you just get a single loud click when using the starter, sometimes you could clear it by rocking the car backwards and forwards in gear, otherwise it was a starter off before you couldn even bump start.
As I said I'm sure these are not used any more and all now have a pre- engaged starter, hence the starter cog and the flywheel are permanently engaged and connection is via an electrically controlled clutch.

Sorry to be even more dumb, but I have always assumed this is the sprag clutch on the Falco.
If it is either not engaging at all or stuck in you will obviously have a problem.
If it was stuck in the engaged mode, I am guessing it would destroy itself, and there would be some evidence of this, nasty noises and fragments in oil etc.. You would have noticed the noises from what I hear.
So by my simple logic we are back with the electrical working of the clutch, and there are not too many options, as one click means something is locked solid or not enough power is getting through to work it.

Battery - Changed
Starter Relay - Changed for a heavier duty item.
Another bit of the clutch mechanism (elecro mechanical), that works when the relay lets the power through, anything been missed here?
Help anybody ??
Or as already mentioned/tried - Check all the connections all down the line from the battery, mostly covered.

Sorry if I'm just rambling on Rich, as I am not an auto electrician, just a Numpty, I just go through all the logic like this and it sometyimes helps me, cos like you I get seriously pissed off when I've tried the obvious, bought and fitted a few new obvious bits and got absolutely nowhere.

Good luck !!

[Falcopops]

I've been down the same path recently mate and although mine will fire up most times and if it fails it will go the second try, but your symptoms sound very like mine. I pulled my starter and found nothing.

The starter is always engaged with the sprag, nothing goes in and out it just spins (or should do).

The starter won't turn easily by hand as there are strong magnets in there that will resist the armature (the spinny bit) from turning. It will feel sor of notchy to turn by hand, but without any nasty mechanical noises.

The bearing is in the right place, does it spin freely?

I'm surprised it didn't spin up when you tried it, maybe you didn't have a good enough earth, even a starter with a dodgy circuit should spin up if it's not under load. There's bugger all to the starter so I'd be surprised if it was the issue (but I've been looking at mine too). The fact that the solenoid clicked and the starter didn turn suggests that there was no path to earth.

Try it again, but on a battery (+ to + and casing to -) hold it tight and be prepared for a spark.

Good luck

Latest update.................

Checked (and replaced) both 30amp fuses which were both OK. Removed starter motor and checked it ...........nothing obviously wrong, the brushes look OK but the motor didn't spin as easily as I thought it would (I've nothing to compare it with ot to if I'm being honest) so I re-attached the power cable and hit the start button with the motor removed but now resting on the engine casings.

Now I get a single click from the solenoid but nothing at the starter motor, I reckon it should at least spin or try to do something but its as dead as a dodo. Stripped the motor again and double checked the brushes etc.. but with the same result..........nowt!

Now I'm no expert (as most of you know) but I thought the motor would drive the starter gear outwards and engage the flywheel, having looked at the motor, the final bearing is on the shaft and doesn't move (slide) I'd have thought it should slide or something should to allow the motor to engage and release but for the life of me I can't see how can happen whilst this bearing is in its current position. Shouldn't this bearing be housed in the end casing? (where I think it should be) If so then I know why its knackered!! I've tried "reasonably" forcefully to move the bearing but its seizied in that position





So am I right in thinking its knackered????? I'm not sure how else to check it works? can it be refurbished or should I start looking for a replacement?

Have I said how much I hate electrics

F9

[Samray]

Aye, several times a bad earth has been suggested, and it was my first thought.

[Falco9]

OK, Firstly can I say a big thanks to everyone who's contributing their thoughts & advice to this problem. I'll try to cover the latest questions and advice offered to date.

So far I've checked / replaced or bought

1) New Battery (fully charged)
2) New starter solenoid 100amp model
3) Today had the starter motor checked out and its fine
4) I've checked the main earth points on the engine casings and they are clean, I took them off, gave them a smear of electical grease and re-mounted them tightly. Are there any other earth points I've missed???
5) Replaced both main 30amp fuses (although the originals appeared fine)

Just to recap, everything electrical "appears" fine on turning the ignition on. All the lights etc..function, the rev counter swings etc.... but when I hit the starter button I just get a loads of clicks from the "new" relay. When I removed the starter motor and rested it the engine casings I get one click from the relay but nothing happens at the starter motor. The garage who checked out the starter motor today said they have had "new" faulty solenoids and not to discount that possibility either

I haven't as yet earthed out the starter solenoid, which I will do next, but could I just check with someone "is it possible to wire the starter relay the "wrong" way round? or will it work on either connection? (just a thought I'm sure I have got it the right way round) If earthing out the relay doesn't work I'm snookered I reckon. Of course it doesn't help that the bike is a few miles away at my parents and not here, I must make some arrangements to get the bike recovered here.

Thanks again and please keep your thoughts and suggestions coming, sooner or later I'll get the bloody thing running again

F9

[flatlander]

as I am without doubt not normally equipped to offer advice on these sorts of things but don't forget the wires and the contacts themselves when looking at things like the solenoids etc.

[anzacinexile]

Maters not a jot which way round you wire the solenoid - heavy or light side but you're worrying me with the phrase "earthing out the solenoid".

Under no circumstances earth ANYTHING at the solenoid, sparks, burning and tears will be the result. If you mean bridging out the solenoid with a bluddy great screwdriver across the heavy terminals then fine go ahead but PLEASE make sure you don't accidentally touch ground.

Be warned, there will be sparks but be brave and firm

[Falco9]

Maters not a jot which way round you wire the solenoid - heavy or light side but you're worrying me with the phrase "earthing out the solenoid".

Under no circumstances earth ANYTHING at the solenoid, sparks, burning and tears will be the result. If you mean bridging out the solenoid with a bluddy great screwdriver across the heavy terminals then fine go ahead but PLEASE make sure you don't accidentally touch ground.

Be warned, there will be sparks but be brave and firm

Yes, I meant bridging out the soleniod with a big screwdriver I will try to be brave but I'm not looking forward to it. I haven't done this since my Mk1 escort wouldn't start back in the seventies (it scared the cr*p out of me then as well )
TBH I can't think of anything else to do with the damn thing

F9