Political or politic?

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Kenif · #1 Post by **Kenif** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:47 pm

Just found this on another site (result of discussion over the anti-war demonstration in Luton). Not sure if it's quoted accurately but food for thought perhaps?

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd - Australia

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks..

Separately, Rudd angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
Quote:
'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '

'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'

'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'

'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'

'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'

Viking · #2 Post by **Viking** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:58 am

He didn't say it. The same rant has been going around for about a year now, always attributed to different people.

Firestarter · #3 Post by **Firestarter** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:21 am

Not entirely sure it started in Aus, either, I'm sure I've heard it about UK MP's, US Senators, and others...

Samray · #4 Post by **Samray** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:48 am

Obviously has universal appeal then.

Aladinsaneuk · #5 Post by **Aladinsaneuk** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:21 am

rightfully or wrongfully but

you are either british/australian/whatever or you are jewish/muslim and so on

if you are in the latter group then please go live in Israel/ any one of the muslim states

if you chose to live in the Uk/Oz/where ever then you MUST accept that that country's laws are above all other laws - and that includes religious law

if you wish to live there and practice your religion that is fine - so long as you accept that the national law is just that - the law

D-Rider · #6 Post by **D-Rider** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:22 am

Aladinsaneuk wrote:rightfully or wrongfully but

you are either british/australian/whatever or you are jewish/muslim and so on

No

First group are Nationalities
Second group are Faiths

Being in one does not preclude the other.

Followers of a faith are governed by the ethics and principles of that faith
People are also subject to the laws of the land in which they live

No problem for the great majority of the time in most countries.

For most people with a faith, if there is a conflict, the faith wins - though most will not want to cause conflict with the laws of the nation. Usually there is still no visible conflict as things are done quietly and personally.
Often this has no more effect than you or I ignoring a national speed limit while no one is around (no, hang on, I'd never do that of course).

Within a democratic nation, everyone has a right to influence future law - but no individual or group (other than parliament .... or is it that German woman with the sparkly hat?) has the right to dictate future law.

Aladinsaneuk · #7 Post by **Aladinsaneuk** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:32 am

I take your point Andy but I beg to differ!
The USA is shafted with regard to its middle eastern policy due to the impact of Jewish lobbyists and power brokers. In this country we have some Muslims advocating sharia law over brutish law - and let's be honest the Koran will permit no other.
I am quite happy to allow any one to practice what ever faith so long as it is with in the tenents of our law and society. They challenge that then sorry please leave.
The role of faith is important as is choice and it seems that in this country the majority are ignored in favour of the vocal militant minority

The events in liton brought it home - the protesters have the right to protest because the armed forces and the country give them that right. I know I would have challenged the protesters as well - the armed forces do a job for which we should be thankful

D-Rider · #8 Post by **D-Rider** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:25 pm

Aladinsaneuk wrote:I take your point Andy but I beg to differ!
The USA is shafted with regard to its middle eastern policy due to the impact of Jewish lobbyists and power brokers. In this country we have some Muslims advocating sharia law over brutish law - and let's be honest the Koran will permit no other.
I am quite happy to allow any one to practice what ever faith so long as it is with in the tenents of our law and society. They challenge that then sorry please leave.
The role of faith is important as is choice and it seems that in this country the majority are ignored in favour of the vocal militant minority

I agree with the great majority of this Pete and the inability of the USA to take a realistic role of mediation due to the lobby "back home" must have set things back by years.

There again, if it's a case of faith v state then for individuals, usually faith will win - that was the thing that an individual chose - not where they happened to be born (even though the place they were born may also be of importance to them too)
Seldom is there a conflict - when there is, this usually this comes about when either religious leaders misrepresent the teachings of their faith for political ends or where an oppressive regime seeks to oppress a religion (or religions).

As far a a Nation's laws go, yes it has to listen to all, note the majority view and act on what it believes to be just. That will often be the majority view but we do have to recognise that popular opinion is sometimes flawed and can be whipped up by vested interests. There are times when the just solution is not necessarily the most popular view.
Does make things difficult at times!

Samray · #9 Post by **Samray** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:48 pm

Aladinsaneuk wrote: In this country we have some Muslims advocating sharia law over brutish law

I thought they were one and the same.

Gio · #10 Post by **Gio** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:54 pm

If they come here and moan about us then they should be kicked out.

Me I'd eject anyone from an aggressor state where they have murdered any of our citizens, be it armed forces or civilian, then I'd have Blair etc hauled before the courts for war crimes.

HowardQ · #11 Post by **HowardQ** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:56 pm

Sorry to lower the tone a bit, but as an atheist I have no time for any religions. All religion in general has done is cause contstant wars and killed very many millions of people for the last few thousand years, so how can that be good for the world.
If there really is any kind of god, why do so many innocent kids die every year through starvation or disease. The former often caused by religious factions in their countries trying to kill each other year after year.

I only have time for religious people who truly want to help other people of any other religion, these could certainly be Christians or Muslims if they suspended all the other nasty sides of religion, but so many of them are totally incapable of doing this.

I certainly will never accept muslims who think killing innocent people is justified and will never ever accept that the GOD is an American.
As far as the returning soldiers are concerened, nobody should be shouting at them for simply undertaking a life threatening job, we should be thanking them.
People should have the right to protest in a country which claims to be a democracy, (never been sure about that myself), but the protests must be directed to the politicians.
Otherwise both Pete and Andy have some good points about religious lobbying and other issues, although this should not be allowed.

If we were just to look at active rlegious people only in this country, rather than the people who are only religious for weddings and funerals etc., we would probably have to be classed as a Muslim country by now.
Religion is well past it's sell by date for me, and people should just live with each other with no predjudice for colour, sex, wealth or any other reason.
Sadly I will never see that in my time.

P.S. Surely if there ever was any kind of real god, he (or she) would have sent down fireballs to destroy some of the seriously evil people in this world a long time ago.

Rant over!

Syltiz · #12 Post by **Syltiz** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:23 pm

This is fascinating although there are two arguments getting blurred at the edges. I have to agree with Pete - I am here in England as a non-Christian (my beliefs are essentially Pagan in nature), non-English immigrant yet it irritates the hell out of me to see other immigrants imposing their way of life or their beliefs in a country in which they are essentially a guest. Its like visiting someone and demanding they change the curtains because I dont like them and would prefer mine handing there. Immigrants and minority groups should accept the law and religion of the land yet be free to practise their own religion and beliefs within their homes provided they dont break the law. Why is that so hard to achieve and to appear reasonable? Unforunately Democracy is not a fair system as by it nature it means the minority group could potentially be displeased, but its better than any other method out there. I am a minority group in my homeland where the prevailing government thiks its ok to have babies raped and a murder rate higher than Iraq! I am displeased hence I am here. I dont understand/agree with a few British customs/mannerisms but im not about to complain or try and change anyone.

Howard - I agree with your sentiments almost word for word.. except the part about Fireballs. I believe there has to be balance. There cant be good without evil and visa versa. Good without evil would be meaningless.

Aladinsaneuk · #13 Post by **Aladinsaneuk** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:08 pm

i think this debate should be one that the whole country is involved in - and involved openly

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world - but, its very ethos is offensive to many - having fought through out our history for equality and parity for all, that would not fit with in sharia or islamic law....

yes I did particuarly pick on the USA jews - to my mind, if you believe that passionately in the state of israel, then go there - but do not enforce your views on your sovereign state - to coin a phrase, that would be both unpatriotic and anti american....

(Just how many muslims are there in the american political field?)

we need this debate and discussion open to all in our country - if we don't then I fear that Enoch Powell may well have been right - the flash response to the protests in luton showed that - that small group put back the few small advances that the british muslims have made in the eyes of the public
Especially when we remember that we, as a nation support our troops, even if it was a war not in our name - the soldiers etc are doing their job, and they do it well - we know this, and accept it I think

Be interesting to see what Tim and his colleagues view is

D-Rider · #14 Post by **D-Rider** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:17 pm

I largely agree with the points about if you move into a place you take its rules and customs onboard and I agree that people have the right to practice their beliefs in private as long as that doesn't cut across the basic human rights of others.
In the integration process there's room to discuss things too - the presumption being the status quo but if people are happy to change things a bit to accommodate others I don't have a big problem.

Thing about that though is the presupposition that those wanting their views accommodated are people that have migrated here.
I'm quite sure that the greater number have actually been born here - this IS their country of birth.

That complicates the discussion somewhat.

Aladinsaneuk · #15 Post by **Aladinsaneuk** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:37 pm

fair point andy, but if born here, then they have better knowledge of why some of their views are not popular

case in point, through the late 60's and 70's we tried to remove discrimination - be it on grounds of colour, race, sex, religion etc
in the main that has occurred - though the cynic in me points out the colour card is played far to often imho,

one of the main things with in that was equality between the sexes - though my wife does assure me I will never be her equal!
I find it abhorrent that a religion can undo all that at a stroke

I object to the wankers, sorry bleeding heart liberals, who will not allow me to display signs of christianity as it may be offensive to others
(FFS! I am not a christian, but I have chosen to raise my son with in the christian faith as it gives him a good, hopefully, moral code)

I guess what I really am saying is - please sir, can we be allowed to be English/British now?

(On a lighter note, I did read an interview with some muppet from the BNP who said his favourite food was curry.... made me laugh!)