Doctors strike

[Chabby]

I'm baffled by the apparent support for the junior doctors strike.

As far as I can make out, the government want to restrict the hours where doctors can claim enhanced payment, as at the moment, health authorities have to pay overtime rates for doctors at weekends, therefore restricting numbers to how many they can afford to pay and creating dangerous shortages.

Doctors must know what hours they will be expected to work before they apply for the job so why should they be entitled to enhanced payment for weekends when, as far as I am aware, no other workers in the NHS are.
Paramedics, nurses,cleaners, porters don't get paid overtime for weekends, nor do firemen,police etc.

Why should doctors be a special case - or am I missing something?

[flatlander]

Because they're doctors :(

[Aladinsaneuk]

No

Doctors already work week ends

And are paid for unsociable hours at nights / weekends

What the government wants to do is to reduce the unsociable hours by changing the start time of the nights - two hours off a standard night in most cases, and no longer counting Saturday as a part of the week end.....

We are talking about junior doctors - so not GPs etc - that's different

I personally think they are right to strike - this is the thin end of a wedge and if it goes through then I suspect all out of hours payments would be gone inside 10 years

I notice the NHS has not shed any managers to save costs btw

[BikerGran]

No
I notice the NHS has not shed any managers to save costs btw

That's my first thought on the subject - I spent a couple of years in and out of hospitals, mostly my local one, and it seemed there were herds of managers wandering round chatting with empty briefcases under their arms - what are they FOR?

I'd also like to say that when I went into hospital on a Friday evening with what turned out to be a heart attack, and spent the weekend in the Cardiac care Unit, there was no shortage of doctors around.


What this government is trying to do is to undo what was done by another governmenmt some years ago (no I can't remember which one) when they cut the hours that Junior doctors were working, because they were getting so tired it was dangerous!

[Chabby]

I understand that doctors work weekends but everyone else in the NHS (and the public sector) who work weekends doesn't get enhanced pay.

So my question is - why should doctors?

[BikerGran]

My question is rather - whjy don't they all?

[D-Rider]

I understand that doctors work weekends but everyone else in the NHS (and the public sector) who work weekends doesn't get enhanced pay.

So my question is - why should doctors?

Well, some do - and I don't see why doctors shouldn't.

.... and I say that as an Engineer - and we're expected to do as much overtime as is necessary with no payment whatsoever for it (and I've had phases in the past of doing successive 80hr weeks - just being paid for 37.5).
I don't think that's right but I certainly don't begrudge the doctors for trying to protect their workload and their remuneration.

[flatlander]

I think a lot of it depends on your experience of the NHS mine has been pretty poor but despite our local hospital regularly coming near the bottom of several measures it is still rated as good ?
So I am persuaded by my own experience that good doctors, in an ideal world, should get what they want but that equally bad ones or less good should get sacked.
I do agree with the comments regarding back room staff I'd rather have 40 extra good cleaners than another programme manager.
As someone in IT recently said no one joins the NHS because they are the best at what they do

[Chabby]

I agree that any workforce has the right to protect its earnings and benefits.

However, if Mr Hunt is to be believed (a big if I grant you) the reason that more people die on a weekend in hospital is due to a shortage of doctors and the shortage is as a result of doctors being paid more for working weekends, forcing health care trusts to limit the number they can afford to bring in.

I think the doctors have to wake up and smell the coffee regarding unsocial hours payments especially as no one else employed in their sector has such a bonus.

All other public sector workers have had benefits and overtime payments cut - many people in the private sector don't even get extra pay for bank holidays, let alone weekends.

Nurses, police, paramedics, schoolteachers, prison officers have all been told they are not a special case - again, why do doctors think they are.

[D-Rider]

Yes I agree that there is a serious issue regarding doctors at hospitals at the weekend. Not only are there the weekend mortality stats but with experience of a fair number of relatives in hospital:

• 1) you know that if someone is ready to go home, if a doctor hasn't seen them by Friday morning, the earliest they will be "released" is Monday .... by which time they've caught another infection from another of the inmates.
  2) when you are visiting relatives that live a hundred miles away or more and you can only get to see them at weekends or briefly of a midweek evening, there is never anyone you can speak to to discover their condition, progress and what is happening next.

These are probably not as big an issue as the fact that hospitals seem incapable of addressing more issues that the patient has than the specialism of the ward on which they have been placed ..... something repeatedly observed with several of my relatives ....

However, what the doctors are trying to defend and protect is not something that will detrimentally affect the above. These need different solutions.

[D-Rider]

[fatboy]

I remember a nursing friend of mine telling me about a junior doctor she worked with.
The doctor asked her if she would check and re check all of his medication dispensing because he was so tired he was starting to get double vision.
Peoples lives are in their hands so why make them work longer hours?

[flatlander]

So looking at the chart its about money. The anti social hours are still there just counted at a different rate on different time scales and at a different rate unless they are contractually obliged to do them just don't and just do the contracted hours.
Obviously I may be missing something but it seems that their core hours are being changed to include weekend and formerly anti social hours?

[Aladinsaneuk]

More people die at the weekend due to the lack of senior, experienced staff - doctors and nurses

And Professions Allied to Medicine don't provide a full service at week ends - emergency cover only

My ex wife is a consultant radiographer - she is paid a flat salary with week end bonuses - but cheaper than a consultant radiologist.... I would trust her, but she has a wealth of experience... She has a week end off, then it's likely to be an unknown or no one, so no specialist reports until Monday....

What they offered radiographers to work week ends was an insult... I put my trade union head on (most will not know I was a regional steward for the RCN so have been white heavily involved in the past).... Basically, we are going to rota you on for 2 out of 3 week ends, gave you half days off during the week, and cut your pay... HR were surprised when the staff said get stuffed...

[flatlander]

So, and just out of curiosity, if the muppets doing the vendor contracts said you must provide weekend support and senior staff were told people don't just get sick on a week day so be available it might help more than telling the junior doctors or is the idea that this would be a precursor to having senior staff available?
Doesn't make a lot of difference to me in many ways as I always seem to end up having to pay or getting poor treatment.