Ready For The Olympics ? ... I think Not

[flatlander]

could be with ba big L could be a whole semantic debate about whether a confirmed idealogy or set of beliefs could be constrained by terming as a defined group I suppose and whetehr or not the adoption of the term would change the nature of that.

May even refer to the idealogy as included esposed and typified stereotypically as aligned to say a politcal persuasion as a means of identifying the idealogy in a more concrete form almost a form of ellipsis.


or it could be that I am not that bovvered about stuff like that

[Kwackerz]

So crux of the matter.. Cuddle or knock the daylights out of these yobs?

[Samray]

Nanny State doesn't work, and is to blame to a large extent.

[flatlander]

For both failed parents and scumbags themselves they get a choice digging wells etc in Somalia for a year rebuilding in Japan
Polar relief work
reopening disused mines
or shipped for 2 years to that island they tested anthrax on

[Kwackerz]

Somalia, theyd all come back with AIDS.
Japan, Would we be so cruel to the Japs? Plus cmon.. its the world epicentre for electronics.... really?? send them there??
Polar? They dont deserve to be surrounded by that beautiful clean untouched landscape, plus theyd fuck it up.
Mines? Hmm.. Id rather give someone deserving, who tries, a job there that pays good money than punish them by making them work there for free

Youve sold me on the last idea.

[Firestarter]

To be devil's advocate for a minute Andy, we have so many young people, particularly lads from the midlands and north, who started with a family culture that a bloke did not need "qualifications" they should do a real man's job, like a steel worker, miner, car worker, machine operator etc. and wouldn't be seen dead in a Pussy Office job.
This left them not trying much at school, as they planned to follow their dads and grand dads into "industry", but sadly we don't have, (need??) all these manual jobs any more, so what do these lads with no qualifications do.
They have the prospect of never going to Uni, (especially with new fees), never working, never owning a house or a car (bike). Many of the training schemes are now closing or being seriously cut back and just to finally piss them off, many councils are now closing most of their Youth Centres and getting rid of the "Outreach Workers"

Don't agree mate - on the simple basis that it isn't that long ago that the students were rioting (maybe not quite a severely as this lot) - these supposedly being the people who did go through school with a view of going to uni, and do (theoretically) have better prospects, yet they still trashed buildings and threw fire extinguishers at police. A factor perhaps, but not an explanation as to recent events.

This isn't a cry for help from those who want to do better but can't, it's an assault from those who think the world owes them something and isn't giving it to them, rather than not having an opportunity to achieve something themselves. Those that want to do better (rather than expect a living handed out by the welfare state) probably aren't the ones torching shops and running over those protecting their property.

Regardless of the "reasons", there is no justification for anyone to be fire-bombing and otherwise rioting.

[flatlander]

...most of their Youth Centres and getting rid of the "Outreach Workers" who did a great job of getting these kids off the streets and into youth centres where they tried to help them in numerous ways.
...The Youth Service area is one with no government service levels to maintain, so it is one of the easiest places to cut, we may come to seriously regret it.

How do we now help/find work for these young people?

Hands up who had Yoof services when they were growing up?
Now hands up who despite not having these services saw the need to go out looting?

No offence meant to the mostly well motivated people who work in this field BTW

There was one parent on twitter ... appropriately who said well if he goes out with a football and says he's playing football what can you do?

If he's going out with a football at 11pm when there are riots on you can guess he aint playing footbaLL... And why would you let your kids out that late to play football anyway?

[Paulh]

The "kids" are getting the blame, but there was also a large element driving around Croydon in cars systematically looting and doing a lot of damage.

Our local Co-op got raided for £20k of ciggies and spirits on Monday night (its just outside Croydon so they knew there was no police available) - all loaded into cars waiting outside. Not much else got touched.

Not sure exactly how that ties into any protest or anything else the polititians are scoring points about - just basic robbery when they knew there were no police.

[Willopotomas]

Nanny state.. fuck it off.. Bring back proper punishments that fit the crimes and wrong doings. As has been said, as soon as you step out of line you negate all human rights. Common Law in this country is above all other law/legislation and should stand. People forget about it because they're spoon fed political bullshit from the moment they pass through the school gates. I've had to pull my eldest up on a few things he comes home with and have had a word with his teachers about certain things.. He's 4 FFS!

There is a fine line between discipline and blatant abuse. My lot get a hiding if deserved.. Whether it be in our home or the supermarket.. It makes no difference to me and shouldn't to anyone else!

[D-Rider]

As has been said, as soon as you step out of line you negate all human rights.

Can't agree with that - where would we be if civilised society were brought down to the same level as the yobs?
We need to show that the values of a high regard of respect for people and property are important and we will not waver from them - even if others do. That doesn't mean ignoring the problem or not imposing appropriate punishment but it must be done within a decent framework of human rights.


.... also what would happen if we were to step out of line with certain motoring rules and regulations? I hope that there would still be a framework of basic human rights that apply .......

[Firestarter]

As has been said, as soon as you step out of line you negate all human rights.

Can't agree with that - where would we be if civilised society were brought down to the same level as the yobs?
We need to show that the values of a high regard of respect for people and property are important and we will not waver from them - even if others do. That doesn't mean ignoring the problem or not imposing appropriate punishment but it must be done within a decent framework of human rights.


.... also what would happen if we were to step out of line with certain motoring rules and regulations? I hope that there would still be a framework of basic human rights that apply .......

+1 d-, there needs to be basic human rights, unfortunately the application of it means we've screwed up the system. Satellite TV in prisons cos there's a basic need? Pull the other one

Everyone has rights, even criminals, but punishments need to be effective, and clearly they're not effective enough to act as a deterrent. Alad's suggestion of chain-gang seems good to me...

[Willopotomas]

If someone decides to loot my shop or fire bomb my car, what sort of thought do they have for my 'human rights'. None. The human rights experiment of the last 30 years has failed quite spectacularly. In breaking minor traffic laws I'm not infringing on anyone's human rights.. Totally different scenario for that and other offences that cause no harm or distress for others.

Crime should be dealt with in a way that is both punishment and educational. There's no point dishing out a punishment if the offender doesn't understand why they're being punished. It's easy for us to say "the punishment must fit the crime", but we know what to expect if we're naughty boys & girls. The vast majority of those involved in the riots were children who have been brought/dragged up with no form of discipline in their lives at all. It's this frightened attitude towards discipline that needs to end. Punishment should be feared, not laughed at!

[Kwackerz]

The last little scrote who robbed my house got his door kicked in at 2am and re-educated.

He hasnt done it since.

[Aladinsaneuk]

ok

allow me to clarify a touch

if you commit a crime - as in criminal law, not civil - ie not speeding/traffic offences etc - i may have used the wrong terms but you know what I mean, then you get punished

your human rights allow you to have clean water, food, somewhere to sleep, light etc

it does not allow you to have a playstation, dvd player etc. Nor does it allow you to lollock around your own private cell doing fuck all to repay society. It does allow you to do good service - and no you do not have ny choice in the matter - if the boss says you are picking up waste paper by the side of the road - and lets say 5 of you are wearing bright orange boiler suits that say SCUM on them so be it - and yes, for security you are going to be wearing a fetching little ankle bracelet...

oh - and i am also going to be somewhat brutal on things like benefits - there is no way that a household should have benefits that allow them to have the luxuries in life - i work bloody hard to get the nice things, but then i look over the road and see the DoleSkankMonster family - four of the fattest individuals i have seen in a long time - and they have sky multi room full packages etc... and 3 cars... i assume they are insured etc.... how can they afford it?

may be i am getting old and crabby - but ... I think as I pay more and more in taxes, i am allowed to complain about what my money is spent on....

[Kwackerz]

I see this being a turning point for 'human rights' as well as health and safety.

The newspapers were talking of the health and safety aspects of people wombling in london. Whichever council basically told them to fek off with the bullshit H&S, if people wanted to help, fair dos!

Same with the shop keepers and footie fans protecting their turf..shopkeepers complete with minor forms of weapons! Nowt said.. common sense restored.

Then the PM.. old enough to do the crime, old enough to be punished.. as well as something about them not being mollycoddled by human rights, theyll be getting assfekked. Simple as (obviously in non Kwackerz speak..)

If nowt else the looting and the lack of funds in the coffers has brought a bit of common sense back to the Country.